T2K Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 "Larry PS- one thing I did learn to do in college is to discuss issues without personal attacks- let's try to keep this an adult conversation." You sir are attacking the average working American. You are belittling their value/contribution/worth to society with your opinions. Opinions are like a$$holes. Everyone has one. Yours just so happens to favor the former moreso than others. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLOOMIS914 Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Keith, Actually I worked summers in college on a landscaping/lawn cutting/sod crew. Saved enough money to pay for my college spending money and borrowed the rest on student loans and paid for my undergraduate Business Degree from a Private University----NO STATE MONEY GRANTS. Senior year of college I Spent 13 weeks at Various Ford Motor Stamping plants running presses, learning about line work, quality, Labor management relations and basically what it takes to get along and succeed in the working world.....The best lesson I learned was from a guy at Ford-Woodhaven Stamping who always called me "college boy". He was a hi-lo driver that asked me how much I was making as an intern and I told him $8.00/hour and 3 college credits. He laughed and said why you want to go to college and do all that hard work when you could get a job here making $80,000 plus per year driving a hi-lo or working the line.....I said "Yeah right" and he proceeded to show me his pay stub in mid-August and he had grossed more than $58,000 at that point. I was shocked and dismayed to say the least. He bragged how the Union made sure that they have job classifications so even if his job is done, that he can not be moved to other areas that have excess work. Very narrow job descriptions allow for more employees and less flexibility. Heaven forbid he help another area unrelated to the material handlers. What a lesson. This attitude is the norm, not the exception. Often times I was harassed for working any faster than the "Team" wanted to work for fear new standards would be set. My thought was I want to work hard and shine and maybe get more opportunity but that was frowned on, as it made the general population look bad and no one from the Union or "floor" ever got promoted to salary. I realize many don't have this attitude but Keith let's be honest many do. Keith, guess why the automakers are moving their plants to areas like Vance, Alabama (DCX Mercedes) and the like? Because Land is cheap, tax breaks are plenty, labor is cheap and their is an abundance of it, and most importantly the automakers will provide opportunities to all employees as long as the Unions aren't formed. UAW HQ is up here in Detroit and that's a long way from home to try and organize happy workers who otherwise wouldn't have any job options. And guess what, Vance employees kick-*** making Mercedes for DCX they are happier than Union shops because of the "free market" forces that allow them to advance within the organization and increase their earning power. Each person is responsible and accountable for his own destiny.....WOW, what a concept! And it works. But the UAW is pushing hard to change all that. Trust me, if my boss/co. could hire a Mexican or any other nationality guy to do my job today for half the money, he would. And why would I blame him, he is paying me for performance and bottom line sales. It is a free market and they don't owe me a job, a salary or health insurance...I earn it every day and strive to improve. Mdeneen- Your sarcasm takes everything out of context....deal with the basic point.....A fair days wage for a fair days work. Are many (not all) CEO's paid too much? Hell yeah. Are Unions (not all) overpaid, Hell yeah. A realistic balance is what I dream of no free lunches and no golden parachutes on both sides. Larry- Please be specific and reference some government sponsored bailouts of an automaker not including Chrysler Corporation in the late '70's/early '80's??? And Chrysler paid the US Government ALL THE MONEY BACK WITH INTEREST!! I think you are confusing the airline industry and the 9/11 bailout with a basically self-sufficient auto industry. Please don't generalize, be specific and get your facts straight. Actually, I'm hearing some conservative undertones in your last few posts..... Maybe we aren't all so different, just a bit biased based on our own experiences. ------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easyeyes Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 Interesting. Has anyone seen the new movie starring Denzel Washington, "John Q"? Talking about the ordinary working man trying to make a living. Not begging, not asking for a handout, able and willing to work but the system that's designed to help won't or can't help him. Sort of gives you a new perspective on things. I value the ordinary working man who does not have a college degree but yet hits the pavement everyone morning doing what he/she does to pay the bills and put food on the table. Then again, I have nothing against corporate america either. What I do have a problem with is the 18 and 19 year olds coming out of high school playing professional sports making millions of dollars a year. Overall, I know that all professional athletes are very good at what they do and they have practiced and sacrificed to get where they are at now. But, compare an average athletes salary to that of a High School Teacher with a Master's Degree, talking about a disparity in salary. I think that my high school Algebra teacher deserves more than $30,000 dollars a year. Look at the troops that are putting their lives on the line every day in Afghanistan and other parts of the world. I'm not complaining neither will any other GI because this comes with the oath that we've sworn to defend. Many of our elected officials say that military members earn too much as it is, as they continue to vote themselves hefty pay increases every few years. The average military person makes enough money to qualify for food stamps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 After wiping the tears from his eyes, Brett said: "And why would I blame him, he is paying me for performance and bottom line sales. It is a free market and they don't owe me a job, a salary or health insurance" You're suffering from Corporate brainwashing. If a company provides a safe workplace and pays their employees a fair wage there is no need for a Union. That is what is happening here at Mercedes. We all make important decisions in our lives. Lets humbly live with our decisions and not complain because it may appear that someone else has perhaps made a better decision than we. Appearances can be deceiving. Some of us need to find a hobby that will hold our interest so that we can save ourselves the grief of worring about someone elses business. JMO. Keith (Union Guy with a hobby) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump2 Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 Boy According to Denteen What we have is a Command Economy. LOL In your Dreams CA Left Coast Libby. Fact is Gov & Regulations play Very liitle factor with the US Economy. Anf with more GOP control, Deregulation will go even further to advance free markets and Free Economy. MUHAHAHA Dont listen to Denteen and all these Libbies Unless you Want ALSORE or Hilly as your President and the GOV then controls everything in your life. This is what Denteen and the Union hacks think they are pulling off. The American people are not being dumbed down anymore without Slick Willy in there. And this is Why you see all these Libbies on here now. Their so Rabidly Mad that their stupid ideas of GOV controling our Lives every day are being ignored. Every Libby Big Mouth on here has a Political Agenda and Don't Believe anything else. ------------------ Go Forth and Hump the World This message has been edited by forresthump2 on 07-19-2002 at 05:15 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump2 Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 ""I also want to say that I have no agenda, other than to make people think."" HAHA. My ***. LOL These Libbies think they're all Slick Willy and the Public are Morons. LOL Get in line behind Monica to worship your Hero Libbies. Wear your Kneepads. HAHAHA ------------------ Go Forth and Hump the World Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discorules Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 mdeneen, you are absolutely correct. It is pointless trying to enlighten lemmings however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump2 Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 I see the invisable DiscoDuck Suddenly reappears when he start foaming at the mouth and has another political hack job to do. LOL Easyeye, Get a Clue. That a American socialist MOVIE. And designed by the same old Left Wingers in Hollywood. What a joke to use THAT for an Example. HAHAHA ------------------ Go Forth and Hump the World Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLOOMIS914 Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 Keith, I am nut suffering from corporate brainwashing, I'm just becoming more and more of a realist. As I go on, I learn, like it or not, all business is around for one reason.......Hold on here.......TO MAKE A PROFIT!! Usually by making a profit, a small company grows and provides more jobs to more and more people who get to make a living. No one makes anyone get up and go to work each day, at least not here in the US, This isn't communist China. My job is the result of my hard work, and I work hard every day to stay "marketable" and employed. You call it corporate brain-washing I call it insuring, protecting and saving for my own unemployment/retirement should that happen. So my basic belief is that everyone is in control of their own future, if you don't like where you are at geographically, financially, politically or otherwise only one person can change it.....Guess who that is?? The problem is most people are naturally risk-averse or afraid of change. And the other half are risk-takers...This basic human behavior will continue to create the natural disparities in wealth, but also guarantee a labor supply at every educational/skill level. Mdeneen- A lot of talk and you couldn't be more wrong. When's the last time you've been to Europe, Mexico or even Canada????????? My job takes me all over the world and I talk to people from all walks of life. Our economy here in the US is what most foreigners dream of everyday. Why do you think that people are flocking to get in this country from Mexico and otherwise?? This country offers more incentives than any place on the planet for the small business-person to start and succeed if they so desire. The problem today is that many liberals in our current Democratic/Socialist party are, to use Keith's words, brain-washing our senior citizens and many of our minorities and lower-income earners that they can not get by unless big brother (the government) paves the way for them). They continue to promise a program for everyone instead of encouraging a "bias for action" to change one's life or get that education that's holding them back from the next level. Guess who pays for all those programs, the average working man. The US is the greatest free-market on the face of the Earth, it's shameful for you to criticize it to the extent you have. No where else do people have the opportunities to succeed as they do here. Is it perfect? If it was we wouldn't have tobacco lawyers suing for someone smoking themselves into the grave. Ignorance is Bliss for many unfortunately. ------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 "Keith, I am nut suffering from corporate brainwashing, I'm just becoming more and more of a realist." You're not there yet. There will always be someone that will earn more of those almighty dollars than you do. Like it or not. "So my basic belief is that everyone is in control of their own future, if you don't like where you are at geographically, financially, politically or otherwise only one person can change it.....Guess who that is??" You! My point exactly! You're the one that's bitching about someone else's business. If you're unhappy, read you're own words above. People seem to confuse the word 'liberal' with the word 'compassionate'. At some point in most all our lives we will experience a loss than will help us to better understand the difference in the two. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discorules Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 Thanks forrestchump. You make me feel most omnipotent. My appearances with regard to politics are in general to support those who choose not to regurgitate the mindless babble of dittoheads. This message has been edited by discorules on 07-21-2002 at 01:45 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump2 Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 Duck you dont know anything about audio and post no more on that so why try politics? Wipe that foam off your mouth loser. You and AlSore probably wear vials of each other blood around your necks. You losers are losing the middle. Even the Women moderates are swinging to W. MUHAHA ------------------ Go Forth and Hump the World Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump2 Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 Denteen try pulling your head out of your pedant A$$. What we have to look at are Liberals and NonLiberals. Liberals are communtist party but want a chance to win so they vote Democrat. Liberals Want to destroy our constitution and Bills and come out with all their own Mini Bill of Rights. (Insert Gigantic Problem we Created in the Minds Of The Ignorant Voter Here) Bill of Rights). Even after the horrors of 9/11 Liberals want to play Isolationist and give Al Qaeda and the Scum in prison at Gitmo more rights than the Soldiers guarding. Liberals and Al Qaeda are on the same team. You dont think UBL has thought that he can use the LIberals against our own country, and thats just what he's doing to tear this country apart from within. Think about it. Does Tom Dasher really want anything good for this country now when he thinks W Bush will get all the credit for it. Liberals like Denteen think everybody is stupid enough that they think the Pres is Responsible for everything. TOM DASCHLE IS AN OBSTRUCIONIST MAGGOT WHO PRAYS EVERY NIGHT FOR THIS COUNTRY TO UNRAVEL. Think about it. The other Night on CNBC he says "I know that's my job", and I know that's part of the game". GAME? that's how he sees his job meant to help & protect the people and the Constitution. As just a Big political Game? Then Denteen says we have a Command Economy. Like Tom Dasher only in his dreams. Think which party wants the GOV to control all Business. Then Look as how terrible our Government is at managing finances or managing anythin except chicanery. If the new Malfeasance rules applied to the Government they'd throw them all in jail. LOL No the people want LESS government but do want enforcement. The people know the GOV is even worse in regulation than Enron or Wcom or Andersen Accountants. MUHAHA ------------------ Go Forth and Hump the World Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 Horrifying. It is alarming such narrow-mindedness can exist and people are able to comprehend so little. Shut up already. The threads have now turned into little more than one personal attack after another. I am all for a little jabbing at one another but when it is so baseless and requires little more than a third-grade mentality, it is time to stop. ------------------ HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere Audio - Heresy, KG4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump2 Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 What sucks is liberals like Crash that are Stupid as a post and can only attack motives of the speaker. Not the facts. That because the right is right on the facts as any realist can see. The Liberal Pig can only attack the personality and motives of the rights' realism and state or imply that they are smarter. Cant argue the facts then spin spin. LOL The only reason the Libs want to keep bringing this crap up is because they have an agenda and think they have a majority on here. Liberals are the armpit of this country so much so they try to take over an Audio Forum with their crap. Sad Indeed. ------------------ Go Forth and Hump the World Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 Ok. I am not a liberal. I am not a conservative. Now, monkey, figure that out and how narrow-minded may apply to you. ------------------ HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere Audio - Heresy, KG4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discorules Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 Well I am liberal and proudly so. But perhaps not exactly the way forrestchump views it. I've been called worse so if we wants to call me a *** california liberal commie pig, well coming from guys like him/her pleases me no end. As for my audio knowledge, to use vernacular "lost in the forrest" is familiar with, all I need is half my brain with that half in a comma to match wits with ya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLOOMIS914 Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 mdeneen- I see your point and I may have interpreted what you said a little different. After my first read, I got the impression you were criticizing our country's economic/business system/"free market". I understand perfectly about the greater good concept and agree on a very, very controlled basis. But "the greater good philosphy" reeks of liberal, protect us from ourselves bias. There is a million examples of the greater good philosphy going to extremes in government.....Helmet laws on motorcycles are just one, seat belt laws are another, mandatory air bags in cars, etc, etc., etc.....Now whether I agree with these laws or not doesn't matter, it is the fact that our government is becoming more and more involved in our every day lives and taking away your/my freedom to make decisions for ourselves. Pretty soon lawyers will sue McDonalds and all fast food restaurants for selling fat filled cheeseburgers and fries that caused or contributed to some guys heart blockage/obesity. Once they lose, because a sympathetic jury is guaranteed, kiss your cheeseburgers and fries goodbye because government believes you/we don't have the brain power to make intelligent decisions for ourselves and therefore WE MUST BE PROTECTED FROM OURSELVES!! This is no different than the tobacco lawsuits. Medeneen, I don't think we are that far apart and I see your basic point, the problem is I don't think you or many here see your freedoms being taken away on a daily basis or the increased government control that goes well beyond the greater good. For the record, I've tried not to attack anyone here from this BB personally...Our politicians though, that's another matter. ------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 A few historical references come to mind and are the foundation of 'my' belief of government: " seem to think that advance has brought on too complicated a state of society, and that we should gain in happiness by treading back our steps a little way. I think, myself, that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious. I believe it might be much simplified to the relief of those who maintain it." --Thomas Jefferson to William Ludlow, 1824. I heartily accept the motto, -- "That government is best which governs least"; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe, -- "That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have. Government is at best but an expedient; but most governments are usually, and all governments are sometimes, inexpedient. - Henry David Thoreau, On the Duty of Civil Disobedience. Another favorite: hat country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms...The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. - Thomas Jefferson, 1787 ------------------ HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere Audio - Heresy, KG4 This message has been edited by crash827 on 07-21-2002 at 10:18 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 Brett---That sword cuts two ways. Conservatives gave us prohibition and drug laws, to protect us they say but actually to insure a sober work force for their corporate masters. Conservative Republicans are also very keen on zoning laws to protect the value of their property. So your right to use your property as you see fit is curtailed in the name of social conformity and maintaining property values. Kinda hypocritical from the same people who go on about the "free market" wouldn't you say? If I want to buy a lot in a toney suburb and live in a trailer and sell velvet Elvis paintings in the front yard that should be my right in a free-market, capitalist economy. And if the neighbors house loses value so what? That's the free market at work right? Nobody gauranteed them their house wouldn't go down in value. Why don't they take some personal responsibility for their investment, win or lose, instead of having government interfere with the market to support it?<dd> Man's political and social rights have never been advanced by Conservatives. In 1776 the Conservatives were Loyalists, in the 1820s they fought universal male suffrage (oh yeah, some states had property qualifications for voting), in the 1860s they defended slavery, in the early 1900s they defended the Big Trusts, in the 1920s they put Scopes on trial, in the 1940s, 50s and 60s they resisted equal rights for Negroes. In retrospect it's hard to see an issue that the Conservatives were ever on the right side of or when they ever sought the empowerment of the common man. Our time will look the same 50 years from now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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