I heard a pair of Wilson Audio Sophia's yesterday...

[Frzninvt]

No offense to anyone's gear choices but in all the years that I have been on this forum and my first hand experience with Adcom is that they tend to be a tad harsh and edgy at least with the Klipsch Heritage speakers. My brother in law was running an Adcom GFA-555 on his 90's Klipschorn's and while it did sound good if you pushed the amp it would start to get fatiguing at moderated listening levels. Switching to Denon amplification improved the performance considerably. I would swap in that Onkyo amp and see if things improve even though you are running an Adcom preamp. The same holds true for some of the lower level Pioneer and Yamaha receivers. YMMV. What are you using as a playback material source? A good redbook CD player (Nakamichi OMS-7AII, Denon 2900, etc.) or nice TT?

Your system is only as good as your weakest component.

[Chris A]

I got a few pics in and my camera battery died. I did manage to get one of how far mine are out of the corners. The dove tail ceiling is just a little too low to pull off a corner placement. The room is far from ideal from all the furniture and clutter alone.

I can see why you would pull them out of the corners. Nice furnishings by the way.

What follows is a bit heretical: I'd recommend building false corners for just the bass bin height of the Khorns, or perhaps enclosing the bass bins like the 60th anniversary edition's bass bin. Then you can pull the Khorns out of the corners even more to get away from the sloping ceiling and aim the speakers at your listening position without the accompanying dramatic drop off of LF response below ~70 Hz and uneven bass bin mouths that raise Cain with midbass frequencies around 200-300 Hz.

The reason why I'd recommend this is that the Khorn--and all the Heritage-line loudspeakers--use midrange horns (K400, K401, etc.) of the collapsing polar design that spills a lot of energy below 2 KHz down to their crossover frequency with their bass bins, putting this energy on the floor and ceiling, which unbalances the timbre and imaging of the speaker array if this energy is not absorbed, diffused, or delayed more than 25-40 ms from the direct sound at your listening position. If you have a non-flat ceiling over the Khorn, this will direct this spilled energy more toward the listener as early reflected energy, thus spoiling your imaging performance and altering the timbre of the speakers.

If you can move the speakers toward each other a foot or two on each side, this will reduce the amount of early reflected energy coming to your couch or chair listening spot. I'd also highly recommend placing some acoustic pads on the sloped ceiling right above the Khorns - at least as much as the size of the top hat looking down on it, or a greater area more if your WAF will permit it. You're trying to absorb frequencies from ~450 Hz up to ~6 KHz, and most acoustic fuzz pads will absorb this band very well. This is more about the tension between visual aesthetics and loudspeaker-room acoustic performance. You can try different configurations using things like comforters and blankets pinned to the ceiling temporarily to get an idea of how much might be needed and whether it suits your ears. The room will sound slightly smaller, but the imaging and timbre should improve more dramatically than the loss in ambient surround effects.

Your floor is good - covered with carpet which damps the extra collapsing-polar energy from the midrange directed at the floor.

YMMV.

Chris

Edited March 11, 2014 by Chris A

[001]

No offense to anyone's gear choices but in all the years that I have been on this forum and my first hand experience with Adcom is that they tend to be a tad harsh and edgy at least with the Klipsch Heritage speakers. My brother in law was running an Adcom GFA-555 on his 90's Klipschorn's and while it did sound good if you pushed the amp it would start to get fatiguing at moderated listening levels. Switching to Denon amplification improved the performance considerably. I would swap in that Onkyo amp and see if things improve even though you are running an Adcom preamp. The same holds true for some of the lower level Pioneer and Yamaha receivers. YMMV. What are you using as a playback material source? A good redbook CD player (Nakamichi OMS-7AII, Denon 2900, etc.) or nice TT?

Your system is only as good as your weakest component.

no offense taken, have to say i agree with the adcom issues you mentioned for the most part, whats confusing though is that the adcom sounded "fine" or at least much better on my epics, fortes & kg's, but on the k-horns thet do sound a little harsher. also i didnt mention it here but discussed it on another thread, i first used the onkyo amp but it had an onkyo AVR as the preamp, sounded a little better down low but didnt have the bass punch up louder that the adcom pre has. i also tried the rotel amp & it sounded probably the best of all my amps, but was also using the AVR as a pre at the time. so i will try the onkyo amp & rotel amp using the adcom pre & see if i get better results. the adcom pre is pretty decent, not a high dollar s/s or tube by any means, but still well above average & has probably some of the best tone controls out there. im using a pretty well rated adcom gcd cd player at the moment, i also have a nicer onkyo integra cd player & an onkyo sacd/dvd-a/dvd player i will experiment with.

& for me, i also agree with the comment mentioned that bass output is far more important than imaging, if i had to pick one. after all unless the room is HUGE with HIGH ceilings, after a certain volume level imaging goes out the window since the entire room is completely filled with sound. when youre at a live big name rock concert, there is no imaging or stereo seperation etc, its just a big arena filled with the loudest sound most will ever hear from music. same with my & most basements etc, its just a room full of sound. imaging & stereo sep is for low to mid volumes IMO... which i do enjoy from time to time, but for the most part i listen louder than i think most on here do.

[ClaudeJ1]

Have you tried pulling them out of the corners enough to straighten them up a little? Of course the bass will fall off some, but the imaging should improve a lot.

This is the understatement of the day, I think.

I would recommend sound absorption panels within 3 feet of the Khorn top hats on the front and side walls instead. Also anything between the speakers within about 5 feet will detract from the imaging - so sound absorption on the side of racks and cabinets will help.

Chris

L.E.D.E.C. lives!

[ClaudeJ1]

I think if your K's were at a 45 degree angle in corners in a room that was a mere 13' foot wide, you might think different . False corners would be the best out and I believe PWK actually used some in one of his homes that lacked usable corners . But like you said, different ears and different priorities. The obvious problem is the K's don't have adjustability with placement like a LaScala, Belle or Cornwall and once again, there is give and take with everything out there. It seems there is a stigma that follows each models of the Heritage line. The La Scala needs a sub to be totally complete. The K's need perfect corners and need a 20 foot width wall. The Cornwall's have the big Bass, but lack the big mid that many people miss after getting a taste of the K55 driver and the big 400 or 401 mid..... and on top of that the Cornwalls are beat up from the number crunchers for not having a low distortion horn loaded bass enclosure.

Yes he did. My ex. wife and I were there as PWK's and Valerie's guest. Everything he wrote about in his papers and Dope From Hope he actually did, including swithching from Tubes to SS amps (heard those too).

This is why a LaScala with a Tuba Horn sub is the ideal choice. Better bass, and the ability to put the speakers where you need them, although the Khorn takes up less floor space.

The Cornwall's "big bass" is a peak in the 80-90 Hz. range.

The superiority of horn bass has nothing to do with number crunching. When set up right, it makes all direct radiator bass, including Cornwalls, sound mushy instead of tight, even though you can use the same woofer, your ears will tell you as soon as you put a Cornwall next to a Khorn, or better yet, a Jubilee bass bin (twin motors, more cone area/less cone motion. IOW, more powerful). When you consider that "normal" cone motion is reduced to about 1 mm (39/1,000th of an inch), with the same drive voltage, guess which one responds FASTER for the shorter distance on the same frequency? It's pretty intuitive and the main reason why bass horns have superior TRANSIENT response and lower distortion because of the lower power/cone motion required to achieve it.

Edited March 11, 2014 by ClaudeJ1

[Max2]

I got a few pics in and my camera battery died. I did manage to get one of how far mine are out of the corners. The dove tail ceiling is just a little too low to pull off a corner placement. The room is far from ideal from all the furniture and clutter alone.

I can see why you would pull them out of the corners. Nice furnishings by the way.

What follows is a bit heretical: I'd recommend building false corners for just the bass bin height of the Khorns, or perhaps enclosing the bass bins like the 60th anniversary edition's bass bin. Then you can pull the Khorns out of the corners even more to get away from the sloping ceiling and aim the speakers at your listening position without the accompanying dramatic drop off of LF response below ~70 Hz and uneven bass bin mouths that raise Cain with midbass frequencies around 200-300 Hz.

The reason why I'd recommend this is that the Khorn--and all the Heritage-line loudspeakers--use midrange horns (K400, K401, etc.) of the collapsing polar design that spills a lot of energy below 2 KHz down to their crossover frequency with their bass bins, putting this energy on the floor and ceiling, which unbalances the timbre and imaging of the speaker array if this energy is not absorbed, diffused, or delayed more than 25-40 ms from the direct sound at your listening position. If you have a non-flat ceiling over the Khorn, this will direct this spilled energy more toward the listener as early reflected energy, thus spoiling your imaging performance and altering the timbre of the speakers.

If you can move the speakers toward each other a foot or two on each side, this will reduce the amount of early reflected energy coming to your couch or chair listening spot. I'd also highly recommend placing some acoustic pads on the sloped ceiling right above the Khorns - at least as much as the size of the top hat looking down on it, or a greater area more if your WAF will permit it. You're trying to absorb frequencies from ~450 Hz up to ~6 KHz, and most acoustic fuzz pads will absorb this band very well. This is more about the tension between visual aesthetics and loudspeaker-room acoustic performance. You can try different configurations using things like comforters and blankets pinned to the ceiling temporarily to get an idea of how much might be needed and whether it suits your ears. The room will sound slightly smaller, but the imaging and timbre should improve more dramatically than the loss in ambient surround effects.

Your floor is good - covered with carpet which damps the extra collapsing-polar energy from the midrange directed at the floor.

YMMV.

Chris

Thanks for the kind words and the great info. I know I need false corners badly and hang some panels as well. I have also contemplated enclosing the speaks, but to do it right requires a little more hacking than I would want to do and adds way more weight to them from the big slabs of MDF. I am planning a house move in the next year or two, so I'm going to hold off for now for an updated listening room that has decent corners. Having said that, I'm still wondering If I will like the sound with the horns pointed at an honest 45 degrees. I have had the K's at a 45 degree angle in the corners which allow a firm seal on the front wall but about 8 to 10 inches of room for the sides. I really didn't like how the vocals sounded at all. It seemed it put the sweet spot way too close even for my 13 foott listening area. My observation, which is probably fundamentally flawed, but the K's just sound better to me with them pointed more at my listening area.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Max2

[Max2]

I think if your K's were at a 45 degree angle in corners in a room that was a mere 13' foot wide, you might think different . False corners would be the best out and I believe PWK actually used some in one of his homes that lacked usable corners . But like you said, different ears and different priorities. The obvious problem is the K's don't have adjustability with placement like a LaScala, Belle or Cornwall and once again, there is give and take with everything out there. It seems there is a stigma that follows each models of the Heritage line. The La Scala needs a sub to be totally complete. The K's need perfect corners and need a 20 foot width wall. The Cornwall's have the big Bass, but lack the big mid that many people miss after getting a taste of the K55 driver and the big 400 or 401 mid..... and on top of that the Cornwalls are beat up from the number crunchers for not having a low distortion horn loaded bass enclosure.

Yes he did. My ex. wife and I were there as PWK's and Valerie's guest. Everything he wrote about in his papers and Dope From Hope he actually did, including swithching from Tubes to SS amps (heard those too).

This is why a LaScala with a Tuba Horn sub is the ideal choice. Better bass, and the ability to put the speakers where you need them, although the Khorn takes up less floor space.

The Cornwall's "big bass" is a peak in the 80-90 Hz. range.

The superiority of horn bass has nothing to do with number crunching. When set up right, it makes all direct radiator bass, including Cornwalls, sound mushy instead of tight, even though you can use the same woofer, your ears will tell you as soon as you put a Cornwall next to a Khorn, or better yet, a Jubilee bass bin (twin motors, more cone area/less cone motion. IOW, more powerful). When you consider that "normal" cone motion is reduced to about 1 mm (39/1,000th of an inch), with the same drive voltage, guess which one responds FASTER for the shorter distance on the same frequency? It's pretty intuitive and the main reason why bass horns have superior TRANSIENT response and lower distortion because of the lower power/cone motion required to achieve it.

That's very cool Claude. It must have been something to share quality time with PWK and his family. My "number cruncher" comment was more less tongue in cheek and I figured a quick "Horn loaded" lesson was coming from someone I'm a big fan of the Cornwalls, but my old Belles lured me over to the big horns which I quickly found out I couldn't do without. I tried to replace them with KLF-30's to step up the bass from the Belles about 15 years ago or so and realized they didn't bring what was important to my ears, which is that big, clean, mid horn sound. I would love to have a Horn loaded sub, but its not in my financial lineup at the time. Speaking of Horn loaded subs, do you know the retail price for Klipschs massive new Horn loaded sub with the drone?

One more thing figuratively speaking. Lets say in a totally optimized listening room you have one pair of normal Klipschorns and another pair of K's with either false walls or their backs enclosed. Do you think you could get better imaging and soundstage with a slightly less angle on the enclosed or false wall versions as opposed to the normal pair that had to be at 45 degrees tucked in the corners?

[garyrc]

... The Cornwall's have the big Bass, but lack the big mid that many people miss after getting a taste of the K55 driver and the big 400 or 401 mid..... and on top of that the Cornwalls are beat up from the number crunchers for not having a low distortion horn loaded bass enclosure.

... The superiority of horn bass has nothing to do with number crunching. When set up right, it makes all direct radiator bass, including Cornwalls, sound mushy instead of tight, even though you can use the same woofer, your ears will tell you as soon as you put a Cornwall next to a Khorn, or better yet, a Jubilee bass bin (twin motors, more cone area/less cone motion. IOW, more powerful). When you consider that "normal" cone motion is reduced to about 1 mm (39/1,000th of an inch), with the same drive voltage, guess which one responds FASTER for the shorter distance on the same frequency? It's pretty intuitive and the main reason why bass horns have superior TRANSIENT response and lower distortion because of the lower power/cone motion required to achieve it.

ClaudeJ1, I totally agree with everything you said in that last paragraph (reproduced above). As I'm sure you know, the difference in sound does produce interesting numbers, though. PWK measured the Khorn as having about 1/3 of the Frequency Modulation Distortion of the Cornwall (Khorn has approx. 1%, Cornwall approx. 3%) ... and, I think, that was measured at a higher SPL (as shown on the spec sheets) for the Khorn.

I wonder if anyone could post (or has posted) those old spec sheets? They were from the 1970s.

To me, the Khorn sounds much more "open" than the Cornwall, but I can see why people who like a driving beat would prefer the mid bass peak of the Cornwall. I sometimes crank up the bass control on my Khorns for certain kinds of music, phase problems be damned (I use the actual bass control, not the virtual graphic sliders, since they turn off Audyssey, while the conventional bass control does not)>

[ClaudeJ1]

do you know the retail price for Klipschs massive new Horn loaded sub with the drone? One more thing figuratively speaking. Lets say in a totally optimized listening room you have one pair of normal Klipschorns and another pair of K's with either false walls or their backs enclosed. Do you think you could get better imaging and soundstage with a slightly less angle on the enclosed or false wall versions as opposed to the normal pair that had to be at 45 degrees tucked in the corners?

Less than $3,000 delivered, I believe. About the same price as an assembled Danely DTS-10. Pick your bandwidth and your brand. Efficiency is 100 db for both.

YES.

Edited March 11, 2014 by ClaudeJ1

[ClaudeJ1]

PWK measured the Khorn as having about 1/3 of the Frequency Modulation Distortion of the Cornwall (Khorn has approx. 1%, Cornwall approx. 3%) ... and, I think, that was measured at a higher SPL (as shown on the spec sheets) for the Khorn. I wonder if anyone could post (or has posted) those old spec sheets? They were from the 1970s. To me, the Khorn sounds much more "open" than the Cornwall, but I can see why people who like a driving beat would prefer the mid bass peak of the Cornwall. I sometimes crank up the bass control on my Khorns for certain kinds of music, phase problems be damned (I use the actual bass control, not the virtual graphic sliders, since they turn off Audyssey, while the conventional bass control does not)>

PWK had a habit of measuring horn loaded woofers at 100 db sound pressure and direct radiators at 90, which is 1/10th the amound of input power, the the horns STILL had much lower distortion........at least 30 X less if your normalize.

[babadono]

KlipschfanCF4,

I am curious, you say mediocre recordings sound passable on your other Klipsch speakers but on the KHorns can be irritating a high levels. Have you ever measured the SPL you are listening to? I have found it is very easy to get happy with the volume control when listening to KHorns. The distortion is so low it is easy to listen at high levels and then someone else enters the room and says "MAN is that LOUD".

Just my $.02

[001]

KlipschfanCF4,

I am curious, you say mediocre recordings sound passable on your other Klipsch speakers but on the KHorns can be irritating a high levels. Have you ever measured the SPL you are listening to? I have found it is very easy to get happy with the volume control when listening to KHorns. The distortion is so low it is easy to listen at high levels and then someone else enters the room and says "MAN is that LOUD".

Just my $.02

no, havent measured it yet, but i plan to get a meter asap just out of curosity to see what levels it peaks at. i dont push them so loud it hurts your ears like some live concerts can do at 120+db. i'd guess 105-110 max maybe.

[etc6849]

Is that how much a DTS-10 is?!? I thought the kit was $1000 when they sold it, so it costs $2000 for them to assemble it? Too bad as I was thinking about getting two when I move.

Less than $3,000 delivered, I believe. About the same price as an assembled Danely DTS-10. Pick your bandwidth and your brand. Efficiency is 100 db for both.

YES.

[Dennie]

KlipschfanCF4,

I am curious, you say mediocre recordings sound passable on your other Klipsch speakers but on the KHorns can be irritating a high levels. Have you ever measured the SPL you are listening to? I have found it is very easy to get happy with the volume control when listening to KHorns. The distortion is so low it is easy to listen at high levels and then someone else enters the room and says "MAN is that LOUD".

Just my $.02

no, havent measured it yet, but i plan to get a meter asap just out of curosity to see what levels it peaks at. i dont push them so loud it hurts your ears like some live concerts can do at 120+db. i'd guess 105-110 max maybe.

Hey Klipschfancf4,

If you think 20 year old caps don't make a difference.....

You are wrong!

If you like bass as you say you do..... REFRESH THE CAPS!!!!!

Really, it is a cheap update and worth every penny, if not much, much more.

I have 1979 La Scala's and was quite content that La Scala's don't have much bass, as everyone says. I decided to update/replace the crossovers with stock ones from Bob and Michael Crites for $300. WOW! The bass became solid vs mushy and the Highs and Mids cleaned up like never before. It was a big difference.

Update your crossovers and I think you'll be much happier.

Dennie

[Axz Hout]

x

[Axz Hout]

x

[001]

Hey Klipschfancf4,

If you think 20 year old caps don't make a difference.....

You are wrong!

If you like bass as you say you do..... REFRESH THE CAPS!!!!!

thanks for the input, i wasnt aware the bass section on mid 90's ak-3's had any CAPS in it, thought they were inductors or something different than a true capacitor. but either way, i never meant to say 20 year old caps dont make a difference, just said i wasnt fully convinced that at the 20 year mark ALL caps magically became "bad." i have 25+ year old fortes & they sound excellent, bass, mids, highs, all sound great. same with my 20 year old epics & kg5.5.s i just sold. as well as friends 20+ year old klipsch & other brand speakers.

also, i never said anything about the bass in my k-horns, its also excellent for the most part, my only issue is that the mids are overwhelming & not very "balanced" to the rest of the speaker, many others feel the same way. & at higher volumes this becomes more pronounced to where some will even call them "harsh." actually many people call the mids harsh at any volume level & blame the horn itself.

if they were 1979 vintage speakers i would agree & refresh the x-overs, but they are 95's, 79-95 is almost as many years as 95-2014. big difference.