Rivervalleymgb Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 I used some rubberized stretchy type tape for auto use, I think. Then, I sprayed rubber undercoating on top of that. The horns seemed overly bright to me, but at the time I had JBL 4333a's and Belles for mains. I removed the two foam pads. Those cabinets are so well built and braced, resonance was not a real problem, but I thought the stuffing sounds better than the acoustic foam pads did. I have lost so much hearing over the years that every mod I do is relative to only myself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
001 Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 (edited) sorry to hear about the bird! find that bugger or get a cat! a thin first coat will get sucked up pretty fast due to dry fresh sanded wood & the low humidity sped drying. i think a 2nd medium coat will fully seal the wood & barely be visible showing all the grain & texture of the wood. after that you are building up a layer, which is fine & it's your preferance how many coats to do. but be aware that the more you get a layer the more you can see it & the higher the chance for imperfections, like bubbles, lint, fish eyes, uneven sheen & the worst is orange peel, where the surface becomes pitted like the surface of an orange & will require resanding & polishing. Edited April 14, 2014 by klipschfancf4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 (edited) I'm with you, Mr. CF4. After the first coat dried for a few hours, I checked the surface with my hand and was surprised to find bubbles! You couldn't even see them, they had to be found by touch, and there were just a few. They were almost micro-bubbles, felt like sandpaper, and would come off with a fingernail, but the surface definitely was not smooth. I used very light pressure by hand with 220 (no sanding block) and the bubbles came right off, no addtional wood came off. It cleaned up just like guy in the Minwax video said, and now the surface is very smooth. The satin finish was the right choice for restoring to a stock look. (the pics are different due to different lighting, but the finish looks the same in real life) Since I had to wait for the poly to dry, I popped out the horn and applied about one $5 tube,10 oz of clear pure silicon seal. The knuckle rap test shows a lowering of the pitch about 1/3 of an octave. The waveguide still rings when in the hand, but when it is screwed back in, you hear more of a "thud" than a "ping." It is shown next a compression driver, the DNA-360, mated to a SEOS 12" waveguide, pictured above on the stool. I plugged the SEOS in to compare to the Klipsch horn. They sounded exactly the same, same spl, same quality of sound, imaging, everything. I don't know if you could drop the DNA-360 with 1" throat into the Klipsch's 2" throat, but it may be helpful to someone in the future looking for an easy-to-find $75 match. +++ BTW, I didn't see the bird leave, but he left his "calling card" on top of the dryer right next to the door I left open, and we haven't heard from him since. Edited April 14, 2014 by wvu80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 (edited) Update: Is there any more boring of an update, than to say "the paint is drying?" The second coat of poly was applied Monday, with minor sanding afterwards. The third and last coat goes on tomorrow (Friday). Brief listening summary: Wow I put 10 oz of silicon seal on each horn. It makes a 1/3 octave lower difference in the knuckle rap test, but when A/B'd with music, I really couldn't hear any difference. I took out the single 3/4 inch foam pad which was laying loosely in the bottom 1/3 of the speaker, by the two giant ports, which is under the lower of the two woofers (MTM design). I added about a pound of polyfill to that lower third. I have to say, some of the echo chamber sound is gone, I really think I could hear that. It now sounds like a spoken voice, instead of sounding like a spoken voice coming out of a PA system. I could hear the difference in an A/B test, but when listening for fun, not for a critique, qualitatively it sounds great either way, the difference is so subtle. I tried EQ'ing the treble down, tried treble flat with low end and mids up, but it really does sound best EQ'd flat. They also sound good at low/med volume with bass boost on, which surprised me, since I am not much of a bass boost fan. The sound stage is huge, imaging is UN-believable clear. CF-4's absolutely rocks and rolls with drum sounds, tenor drums, kick drums, all sorts of snare drums (wet sound, dry sound, rim shots.) Ride cymbals sound a bit tinny, but crash cymbals SPLASH and explode all over the sound stage, especially at higher volume. I'd really like to hear these with a sub. I'll experiment with my Klipsch RW 12d later on. With speakers only, you can hear the low notes but you don't feel them. I think a sub will give it more depth (ie organ music or tuba sound). To be continued. Edited April 17, 2014 by wvu80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 you are always best to damp away from the vents the top of the cabinet is fine. The reason is simple. Vents and passives all have to have as in must have to function a resonant volume of air. It is the resonant cavity which couple to and drives the vent or passive. You can place damping on the walls but you need to keep a volume of air free to resonate for the vents to function as designed. So leave a volume of 1/5 -1/4 of the cabinet open to be free to resonate around the vents. In my CF3 and KLF20 I damped heavily (solid) with high density fiberglass from the bottom of the woofers up to the top of the cabinet. You can almost always then tune your box 3-4 Hz lower as a result of the impact the damping has on apparent cabinet volume. So long as you leave enough volume for the reflex action to work efficiently you are fine. Recap don't damp or impede the reflex action of vent tubes or passive radiators give them enough free resonating air to do their job, don't stuff them or block them leave space for air flow. Air in a vent at resonant frequency will travel out of the vent as much as 1.5 times the actual vent length. Good luck have fun and enjoy your CF speakers. Thanks to Roy Delgado for such a fine design. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeker Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 They certainly are looking wonderful. A subwoofer will help establish the pipe organ and tuba low frequency. I will say with my experience with the cf4 will reach pretty low on its own especially with the terms moray james implied. If you are testing with the horn not secured to the cabinet this will lose tone as well. Best regards to you 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
001 Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 yeah they should have very satisfactory bass. where are they located in the room? they will have the best bass placed close to or in the corners. if the bass isnt strong where you are sitting there may be room issues causing it, walk around the room or house & see how the bass changes. i bet its real loud in some places & dies in others. every room is different. cf-4's should have very good bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted April 18, 2014 Author Share Posted April 18, 2014 (edited) Beeker: My brain is trained and programmed around 2 channel listening, so when I went to 5.1 about a year ago I really had to change the way I envisioned a sound stage. I still don't think I quite get it. But one thing I DID get from the 5.1 was the subwoofer sound, my first experience with a sub. It's not the sound coming out of the sub per se, but the sub seems to draw or reinforce the bass coming out of the front speakers. With the CF-4 I can hear the tuba, but I can't really feel the tuba. I think that is what I want to experience by adding the sub. KfanCF4: The speakers are located on a stand and I would say about a quarter of the way into the room, 5 feet from the back wall. Your guess about lack of bass due to lack of proper placement is likely correct. They emanate sound from all surfaces as I walk around them. I have these in the finished basement (carpet on the floor) and they are still set up just barely enough for me to pop in some CD's with a cheap 100 wpc receiver. Maybe I'm expecting too much with them being improperly set up. Thanks for the heads up in placement, I'll work with your suggestions. MJ: Mr. James, what am I going to do with you? I have read many of your suggestions on several threads, and I have to read, and re-read your stuff, trying to soak in all that wisdom! I saved you for last, because as usual after I read your stuff, I have questions! Vents: You are right about the vents. They are huge and when I put my hand in front of them listening loud with a lot of musical content, they are both moving massive amounts of air. You said "You can place damping on the walls but you need to keep a volume of air free to resonate for the vents to function as designed." The speaker is in four sections, and there are 1.5 inch foam "damping pads" placed loosely (not glued) behind the two woofs and the horn, (top 3/4) with a single 3/4 section of foam in the bottom where the ports are. My thinking was to NOT damp the woofs, since they are not the problem with the upper register in the horn sounding so piercing. Further, I didn't think poly fill behind the horn would have any effect since the horn doesn't really need a cab to project sound. I was thinking that the rush of air into the ports might have created some of the echo chamber sound I was hearing. I don't know any of this, I am guessing. But are you saying that by restricting the flow of air in and out of the ports, I am hurting the bass since it doesn't have an air cavity to draw from when exchanging air? If that's true, then I should ditch the poly and put the foam liner back in. The bottom line for me is I'm trying to cheaply cut back on that piercing high end, just a tad, and EQ'ing did not seem to work in what I think I am hearing. You keep writing, I'll pick my game up to the next level to try to keep up with you. Edited April 18, 2014 by wvu80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megarock Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 wvu80, it took me a few years to realize this, because i always believed klipsch knows what they are building, but after taking moray's suggestion on the tweeter horn (ev dh1506) and listening to it for a few days, my conclusion is the original k-63 tweeter driver is flawed or inadequate for the cf3 and 4...the k-63 sounds good for HT and easy listening but falls short at high volumes...the EV dh1506 is more open sounding and really blends well with the woofers (i still use the L-pad , have it set at the 2am mark most of the time) and the harshness is gone My jaw dropped to the floor from what i was hearing..it sounds that good i used to run B&K mono blocks for mine (250w) and thought they sounded good, but when i upgraded to the marantz (to me) that is the first time i truly heard the speaker. Bass, sound, everthing, sound was fuller, richer, clearer. I know you want to have good sound for cheap (who doesn't) but find a way to give 300 watts of clean power and you will be impressed more power,more power, more power , keep that in the back of your mind when you listen to them..i can't stress it enough Hope this helps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megarock Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 (edited) wvu80, it took me a few years to realize this, because i always believed klipsch knows what they are building, but after taking moray's suggestion on the tweeter horn (ev dh1506) and listening to it for a few days, my conclusion is the original k-63 tweeter driver is flawed or inadequate for the cf3 and 4...the k-63 sounds good for HT and easy listening but falls short at high volumes...the EV dh1506 is more open sounding and really blends well with the woofers (i still use the L-pad , have it set at the 2am mark most of the time) and the harshness is gone My jaw dropped to the floor from what i was hearing..it sounds that good i used to run B&K mono blocks for mine (250w) and thought they sounded good, but when i upgraded to the marantz (to me) that is the first time i truly heard the speaker. Bass, sound, everthing, sound was fuller, richer, clearer. I know you want to have good sound for cheap (who doesn't) but find a way to give 300 watts of clean power and you will be impressed more power,more power, more power , keep that in the back of your mind when you listen to them..i can't stress it enough Hope this helps! i will say this (more power and the tweeter horn fix) are the 2 major points to get the Cf's sounding as they should...everything else, foam pads, raising them, bi amp, wrapping the horn, room placement is all personal preference... imo excellent job on refinishing them they look awesome! Edited April 18, 2014 by megarock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeker Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 pm sent wvu80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 Beeker: My brain is trained and programmed around 2 channel listening, so when I went to 5.1 about a year ago I really had to change the way I envisioned a sound stage. I still don't think I quite get it. But one thing I DID get from the 5.1 was the subwoofer sound, my first experience with a sub. It's not the sound coming out of the sub per se, but the sub seems to draw or reinforce the bass coming out of the front speakers. With the CF-4 I can hear the tuba, but I can't really feel the tuba. I think that is what I want to experience by adding the sub. KfanCF4: The speakers are located on a stand and I would say about a quarter of the way into the room, 5 feet from the back wall. Your guess about lack of bass due to lack of proper placement is likely correct. They emanate sound from all surfaces as I walk around them. I have these in the finished basement (carpet on the floor) and they are still set up just barely enough for me to pop in some CD's with a cheap 100 wpc receiver. Maybe I'm expecting too much with them being improperly set up. Thanks for the heads up in placement, I'll work with your suggestions. MJ: Mr. James, what am I going to do with you? I have read many of your suggestions on several threads, and I have to read, and re-read your stuff, trying to soak in all that wisdom! I saved you for last, because as usual after I read your stuff, I have questions! Vents: You are right about the vents. They are huge and when I put my hand in front of them listening loud with a lot of musical content, they are both moving massive amounts of air. You said "You can place damping on the walls but you need to keep a volume of air free to resonate for the vents to function as designed." The speaker is in four sections, and there are 1.5 inch foam "damping pads" placed loosely (not glued) behind the two woofs and the horn, (top 3/4) with a single 3/4 section of foam in the bottom where the ports are. My thinking was to NOT damp the woofs, since they are not the problem with the upper register in the horn sounding so piercing. Further, I didn't think poly fill behind the horn would have any effect since the horn doesn't really need a cab to project sound. I was thinking that the rush of air into the ports might have created some of the echo chamber sound I was hearing. I don't know any of this, I am guessing. But are you saying that by restricting the flow of air in and out of the ports, I am hurting the bass since it doesn't have an air cavity to draw from when exchanging air? If that's true, then I should ditch the poly and put the foam liner back in. The bottom line for me is I'm trying to cheaply cut back on that piercing high end, just a tad, and EQ'ing did not seem to work in what I think I am hearing. You keep writing, I'll pick my game up to the next level to try to keep up with you. I think you can obtain a lot of free bass by being willing to experiment with speaker position. Five feet in front of the front wall(the wall you face when you listen) is quite a distance, why don't you try 2 -3 feet off the wall and see if that provides you with enough additional bass reinforcement? You will quickly get a feel for bass reinforcement and boundary proximity. It is also a very good idea to have the walls and or corners symmetrical on either side of both speakers in order to keep a balance of bass weight. For example a corner on the side of one speaker and an open dining room area on the opposite side of the other speaker is not a good plan. Foam is not a very efficient damping material below mid frequencies. The cotton blue jeans material is much better so is Kapok as used in the upholstery trade. If you leave a space behind the woofers about the width of your fist just a simple vertical column of open air will do fine to couple the woofers to the vents and you can damp the rest of the box, but do leave the area directly behind the vents open all the way to the back of the box to allow the air in the vents a place to expand into. That air will couple with the open channel behind the woofers and so the vents will load the woofers well. See if this helps you attain a better balance. When your vents are working as designed the bass will be strong controlled and powerful with an effortless quality and they should blend seamlessly with the horn and help to fill it out in its bottom register. Playing around to get things right can be a very rewarding process and you can really improve your listening skills. For two channel all you should need is proper placement for your bass to shine. Have fun experimenting. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted April 18, 2014 Author Share Posted April 18, 2014 (edited) (respectful snip, I just wanted to reference the post)...should blend seamlessly with the horn and help to fill it out in its bottom register. Playing around to get things right can be a very rewarding process and you can really improve your listening skills. For two channel all you should need is proper placement for your bass to shine. Have fun experimenting. Best regards Moray James. I am still in experimental mode, as I am finishing up my re-finish job on the box. I do love learning about all this, and the Klipsch have a rep about having a characteristic sound. I don't want to re-invent the wheel, but it is fun changing minor things here and there to see if I can hear changes. I have a pretty good ear, but I also know there is a "halo effect" that when I know what changes are made, I'm instantly biased due to my expectations. My wife hates going in the basement (yay! ) so I have the luxury of moving the speakers all over, with limitations. I use two different lengths of 18 gauge speaker wire, because that's all I had laying around. Also, I have to get those speakers away from the old TV because the strong magnetic fields are turning the colors into red on one side and green on the other! They are five feet away from the wall because that's how long the speaker wire is, and away from the TV! Eventually I'll get them properly positioned, as suggested by you guys. I still need to order (hopefully today) some decent 12 ga wire, some banana plugs, and some binding posts (one post is missing completely). I'm not quite sure what I'm going to do with these speakers ultimately, so I don't know if I'll be ordering new CD's for the horn. You know I want to! As far as power is concerned, I really like the new integrated AVR's, and I love my one year-old Onkyo TX-NR717, but I know there is bigger, faster, louder out there. I am trying to stay away from separates, because I have been there and done that, but I know that the Onk at 110 wpc, even with the bi-amping, probably will come up short in the power department needed to really make these speakers shine. Still, I'd like these babies to reach their full potential, so keep making suggestions. I read everything! Edited April 18, 2014 by wvu80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
001 Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 (edited) 5ft out from the wall is way too far IMO & definantly affecting the bass output. if you can arrange things so the tv isnt affected i would strongly suggest to get them as far into the corners as possible toed in a bit to point at the listening position. heritage klipsch manuals & the dope from hope articles stressed that corner placement is best for bass responce. i would say 1-2ft from the back wall is max, maybe even 8-10", then about the same from the side wall, shoot for 1-2 feet & see what happens. also, although i know some say to put them on stands to raise the horn to ear level, i have found stands hurt bass, you want the speaker to be on the floor if possible, thats why they make spikes, to couple the speaker to the floor as much as possible. the mid horn is angled such that it will disperse the sound to your ears just fine & may even cut down some of the brightness you hear. & when you are sitting ~10ft or more away from them, the horn is aimed pretty much right at your ears. take them off the stands & stick them as far into the corner as you can, you should see the bass increase greatly. its worth a try before changing out mid drivers etc. as for power, i think your 110wpc is fine for most listening you will do on these, you only need 200+wpc if you plan to listen at rock concert levels for longer periods of time. if you want a "newer" AVR & like onkyo, i would suggest finding a used 805 or 806 receiver. they go for about $250-$300 on ebay (got mine for $225 shipped) & at 130wpc they are a excellent receiver with hdmi capability for video, if that matters to you. if you want the best for 2ch, i suggest looking into seperates, lots of used amp & pre amp options out there without getting into the ridiculous expensive stuff. & the 5.1 thing is best saved for movie use IMO, granted if you have good matched speakers then SACD can be a nice touch if the cd is mixed right, but otherwise 2ch music is best as thats how it was originally intended to be heard, breaking up a stereo recording with digital processing is mostly a gimic & usually doesnt sound as good as the original 2ch. corners on the floor & maybe boost the bass knob to 1 or 2 o'clock. you should hear a big difference! Edited April 19, 2014 by klipschfancf4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted June 29, 2014 Author Share Posted June 29, 2014 Bump by me, to make it easy to find again. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted September 2, 2014 Author Share Posted September 2, 2014 Bumped to make it easy to find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 I missed this thread the first time around. Nice work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted May 18, 2015 Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 This section starts more and different upgrade mods +++ Woofer dust cap needs gluing: On 5/9/2015 at 0:28 PM, alexg5775 said: This is the woofer were i re glued the dust cap. Looks much worst in pic than is does in person. Good timing. I am getting ready to glue a single dust cap as well. Do you have that procedure detailed someplace? I am also interested in the glue you used. There are several of the Super Glue types that specify: "Not recommended for use on polyethylene or polypropylene plastics." I'm not sure what the woofer plastic is. Mustang Guy said he uses this stuff from Parts-Express, medium density, color is black. http://www.parts-express.com/black-rubber-cement-speaker-repair-glue-1-oz-bottle--340-078 I also have concerns over the "bonds instantly" feature. There are some that bond in 10 seconds. I didn't want anything to bond instantly so I went to the plumbing department and got some Oatly All Purpose Cement used for PARA, PVC, ABS plastics. It dries in 10 minutes and is a medium viscosity. http://www.lowes.com/pd_23467-138-31018L___?productId=4750803&pl=1&Ntt=oatly I bought some small paint brushes from Walmart, 30 brushes for .99 to apply the glue. Edit: The loose woofer dust cap came completely off easily by pulling, no cutting needed as the old glue was dried to the plastic woofer material. I used a pocket knife to gently scrape the old dried up glue so the new cap would seal. This was easily done. I used the Oatly Med cement from Lowes and applied it with a small paint brush. It allowed me to re-position it slightly and it dried within a minute. This works fine and is recommended. To put pressure on the outside of the dust cap I found a flower vase with a 4" opening. I turned it upside down and it worked perfectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red1302 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 (edited) I would like to ask if using either of theese items - http://www.cofair.com/roof.aspx or http://www.frostking.com/foil-and-fiberglass-duct-wrap/ ( foil and foam wrap) has been used to wrap the horns and or the woofer baskets by anyone on theirs respective speaker to damp vibrations. I have both left over after working on my "71" Superbeetle. they were both easy to work with and certainly quieted the car. Thanks, John Edited May 22, 2015 by red1302 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted November 10, 2018 Author Share Posted November 10, 2018 Bump to make easier to find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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