Another KLF 20 brace job, Plus refinish....

[Klipschtastic]

I've been taking all of the great advice on this forum and for the past few weeks I have been working on my KLF 20's. I was able to get both front baffles off. I had previously repaired one of the rattling rear baffles with 3/4"x3/4" bracing and the other rear baffle was on tight so I just sanded the melamine off and added the bracing. The speakers were originally Light Oak and had been painted black which was now chipping off so I decided to try my hand at refinishing. Wow, everything seems so much easier when you're planning it. I must have 50+ hours in these speakers by now. I'd like to thank everyone for their advice. I chose an older post by dingmanon audiokarma to model my braces after since my carpentry skills are limited and his bracing looked simple and to the point. I also received lots of good advice from Moray James and many others whether directly or by reading older posts. Without this forum I would have never tried any of this.

Clamp city

One down, one to go

After about 15 hours of stripping, sanding, starting to stain with Black Walnut Danish oil

Maybe overkill on the clamps but when in doubt.......

Happy with the first one!

KLF 20, now available in black walnut

This is where I am as of today (on both speakers). I just need to finalize any interior dampening and put everything back together. I am all ears for any last minute advice on dampening that is budget friendly and may actually make an audible difference. Otherwise I'll just put the factory foam back in.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Klipschtastic

[ryanm84]

Love the finish on those. I think it goes to show that with the will, we can bring these beauties back to life. And no shortage of ideas and expertise on this forum.

[Schu]

Wow... looks great. That is a lot of dedication for a klf.

[derrickdj1]

Great job on the refurb. The sound of the KLF 20's has stuck in head since I first heard them. I liked them better than the KLF 30's. They are a great speakers paired with the right amp.

Edited April 9, 2014 by derrickdj1

[ChuckAb3]

I have a black pair of 30's but your black walnut is so much nicer. Don't think I'd have the courage to strip and re-stain a veneer. Great work......

[Klipschtastic]

Thanks for the complements. If mine were the factory black I would have left them alone but the previous owner had painted them black and the paint was kind of thick and obscurred the detail of the grain. Plus it was chipping off, had a few drip marks and just all together was looking bad. I was apprehensive going in but I am happy with how it went. I wouldn't be afraid to do another pair now.

[moray james]

if you are still open to suggestions you might want to install a brace down the centre of the top of the cabinet (front to back). Just make sure that you leave space for the tweeter. The top panel can move more than the sides in a lot of speakers. Nice job on your cabinet. I have plans to turn my current set of KLF20 into a two way with a set of EV DH1A and some paper Karlson K-Tubes. Best regards Moray James.

[soupy1970]

KLF 20, now available in black walnut

This is where I am as of today (on both speakers). I just need to finalize any interior dampening and put everything back together. I am all ears for any last minute advice on dampening that is budget friendly and may actually make an audible difference. Otherwise I'll just put the factory foam back in.

Looks Great!

[pzannucci]

Wow... looks great. That is a lot of dedication for a klf.

I kind of wonder why the KLF-20 and KLF-30's are not thought of as highly as Heritage (lack of respect ). My thoughts is they are just as much Heritage as Heritage.

- Better mid horns than the exponential horns but same drivers

- Same tweeters

- 2 10" drivers in the 20's that can pretty much keep up with a Cornwall and blow away a Heresy

- 12" drivers in the 30's are used in the Jubilees that can almost keep up with a Khorn.

Sounds like Heritage or maybe Super Heritage to me other than their more slender bodies.

I think Klipsch should bring though they would seriously impact the sales of their other lines and cost more to manufacture then simple 2 ways.

I've never listened to the klf-10s so can't speak there.

[Klipschtastic]

Well, I put them back together last night and as far as the sound, well I had no complaints before (other then the rattle) after slightly attenuating the mids. It does seem as if the woofers move slightly more now. I put my hand above and below the woofers front and back while they are hitting and it feels very firm. Maybe more bass definition? Sonic memory is terrible. I should have finished one first so I can compare. I definatly like the looks better though!
May try tuning the ports for lower frequencies. I believe I read that 2-3 inches additon is a good starting point.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Klipschtastic

[pzannucci]

I do like the stripping job. If my KLF-30's weren't so mis-handled before I got them, that would be a nice project. I have been contemplating building a new enclosure with passive radiators to get a little deeper and cleaner bass.

[moray james]

Wow... looks great. That is a lot of dedication for a klf.

I kind of wonder why the KLF-20 and KLF-30's are not thought of as highly as Heritage (lack of respect ). My thoughts is they are just as much Heritage as Heritage.

- Better mid horns than the exponential horns but same drivers

- Same tweeters

- 2 10" drivers in the 20's that can pretty much keep up with a Cornwall and blow away a Heresy

- 12" drivers in the 30's are used in the Jubilees that can almost keep up with a Khorn.

Sounds like Heritage or maybe Super Heritage to me other than their more slender bodies.

I think Klipsch should bring though they would seriously impact the sales of their other lines and cost more to manufacture then simple 2 ways.

I've never listened to the klf-10s so can't speak there.

The K79 tweeters in the KLF20 and KLF30 have poly diaphragms stock which are substantially inferior to the phenolic diaphragms used in the K79 of the Heritage series. Bob's ti diaphragms are the very best I have used and to my ear leaves the phenolic in the dust. I think that a KLF20 or KLF30 fitted with a KLF10 tweeter lens (one inch K79 motor) and time aligned to the mid would be absolutely killer same polars and dispersion (the horn is almost identical to the KLF20/30mid horn) lots of smooth overlap between the mid and the tweeter. The horn in the CF3 and CF4 is larger and better and you get to stay two way. The comp driver used in the CF3/4 can be upgraded with better quality unit for improves SQ. Just my 2 cents. Best regards Moray James.

[pzannucci]

The K79 tweeters in the KLF20 and KLF30 have poly diaphragms stock which are substantially inferior to the phenolic diaphragms used in the K79 of the Heritage series. Bob's ti diaphragms are the very best I have used and to my ear leaves the phenolic in the dust. I think that a KLF20 or KLF30 fitted with a KLF10 tweeter lens (one inch K79 motor) and time aligned to the mid would be absolutely killer same polars and dispersion (the horn is almost identical to the KLF20/30mid horn) lots of smooth overlap between the mid and the tweeter. The horn in the CF3 and CF4 is larger and better and you get to stay two way. The comp driver used in the CF3/4 can be upgraded with better quality unit for improves SQ. Just my 2 cents. Best regards Moray James.

Hello Moray,

The Cornwall II uses the same tweeter as the KLFs and the Heresy uses almost the same material in a lower output tweeter. The horn change might be reasonable but I have found that you have to be careful with driver overlap. It can be a blessing and it also can be a curse. Many times you have to rely on a high slope crossover to make it sound right and to get rid of things like comb filtering. As far as a two way system, many people, including myself, enjoy the smoothness of a two way but they don't have the same mid-range projection as a three way not to mention the possibility of being articulate in the lower mid-range which people overlook. I recognize that as a smoother sounding speaker though the sound doesn't get presented the same way as a dedicated mid. Hard to explain but recognizable.

As for the Ti diaphragms, I have been tempted to pull the trigger on them based on your comments. I likely will one of these days as long as I keep these KLFs. I have sold off most of my Klipsch speakers to downsize. Slowly transitioning to a new house with no corners for khorns.

And back on this thread, I really like klipschtastic's clean up job to remove the black paint on his speakers. Makes you wonder why they paint over perfectly good veneer. .

[moray james]

The K79 tweeters in the KLF20 and KLF30 have poly diaphragms stock which are substantially inferior to the phenolic diaphragms used in the K79 of the Heritage series. Bob's ti diaphragms are the very best I have used and to my ear leaves the phenolic in the dust. I think that a KLF20 or KLF30 fitted with a KLF10 tweeter lens (one inch K79 motor) and time aligned to the mid would be absolutely killer same polars and dispersion (the horn is almost identical to the KLF20/30mid horn) lots of smooth overlap between the mid and the tweeter. The horn in the CF3 and CF4 is larger and better and you get to stay two way. The comp driver used in the CF3/4 can be upgraded with better quality unit for improves SQ. Just my 2 cents. Best regards Moray James.

Hello Moray,

The Cornwall II uses the same tweeter as the KLFs and the Heresy uses almost the same material in a lower output tweeter. The horn change might be reasonable but I have found that you have to be careful with driver overlap. It can be a blessing and it also can be a curse. Many times you have to rely on a high slope crossover to make it sound right and to get rid of things like comb filtering. As far as a two way system, many people, including myself, enjoy the smoothness of a two way but they don't have the same mid-range projection as a three way not to mention the possibility of being articulate in the lower mid-range which people overlook. I recognize that as a smoother sounding speaker though the sound doesn't get presented the same way as a dedicated mid. Hard to explain but recognizable.

As for the Ti diaphragms, I have been tempted to pull the trigger on them based on your comments. I likely will one of these days as long as I keep these KLFs. I have sold off most of my Klipsch speakers to downsize. Slowly transitioning to a new house with no corners for khorns.

And back on this thread, I really like klipschtastic's clean up job to remove the black paint on his speakers. Makes you wonder why they paint over perfectly good veneer. .

Pzannucci: to the best of my knowledge the Cornwall ll does use a K79 but it was fitted stock with a phenolic diaphragm. while the KLF20/30 also used the exact same horn and K79 motor but they were factory fitted with the soft shiny black poly diaphragms which don't sound anywhere near as good as the phenolic diaphragms or the ti which are superb. I believe the reason to use the poly in the KLF was simply to make sure it did not sound as good or better than the Heritage line up. After all a KLF30 can move far more air than a Cornwall can and a KLF30 also plays lower than a Cornwall can. I expect the intent for the KLF towers was to target the HT market not the 2 channel market. Say hello to a bad batch of hot melt adhesive and the KLF just had to go away and the less expensive two way Reference series soon came into being for the HT market.

We will have to agree to disagree on two way Vs three way. I would rather listen to a CF3 over a KLF20 or a CF4 over a KLF30 any day and midrange presentation is the main reason. I turned my H3 into two ways for a while with a CF3 crossover on the tweeter (just left the stock H3 network on the woofer) and used a EV DH1A with a 6.5" long double cut away Karlson K-Tube instead of a horn. When I pulled it all apart and put the H3 back to a working three way it was three weeks before I even wanted to listen to the H3 and a few more weeks before the sound of the H3 stopped bugging me. PWK's dream was for the Khorn to be a two way and he was only able to realize that dream with the Jubilee. I expect that the Jubilee with a K402 on top simply leaves the Khorn in the dust. I have hot heard this combination myself but we do have members with this set up.

I agree the OP did a really nice job on his KLF and it is nice to see the black paint gone and some good looking veneer instead in its place. I hope that more folks go the same way and upgrade some KLF as they are well worth the effort. Best regards Moray James.

[Schu]

Wow... looks great. That is a lot of dedication for a klf.

I kind of wonder why the KLF-20 and KLF-30's are not thought of as highly as Heritage (lack of respect ). My thoughts is they are just as much Heritage as Heritage.

- Better mid horns than the exponential horns but same drivers

- Same tweeters

- 2 10" drivers in the 20's that can pretty much keep up with a Cornwall and blow away a Heresy

- 12" drivers in the 30's are used in the Jubilees that can almost keep up with a Khorn.

Sounds like Heritage or maybe Super Heritage to me other than their more slender bodies.

I think Klipsch should bring though they would seriously impact the sales of their other lines and cost more to manufacture then simple 2 ways.

I've never listened to the klf-10s so can't speak there.

I could not disagree more... the KLF is a fine speaker, fine... But it's not a Heritage.

I've owned my share of both... if I wanted to rock, I might take a KLF however if I wanted refinement with realistic spacial qualities, I am taking the cornwall every time.

that's my personal choice, yours is probably different.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Schu

[Klipschtastic]

I agree the OP did a really nice job on his KLF and it is nice to see the black paint gone and some good looking veneer instead in its place. I hope that more folks go the same way and upgrade some KLF as they are well worth the effort. Best regards Moray James.

Thanks Moray!

[pzannucci]

Wow... looks great. That is a lot of dedication for a klf.

I kind of wonder why the KLF-20 and KLF-30's are not thought of as highly as Heritage (lack of respect ). My thoughts is they are just as much Heritage as Heritage.

- Better mid horns than the exponential horns but same drivers

- Same tweeters

- 2 10" drivers in the 20's that can pretty much keep up with a Cornwall and blow away a Heresy

- 12" drivers in the 30's are used in the Jubilees that can almost keep up with a Khorn.

Sounds like Heritage or maybe Super Heritage to me other than their more slender bodies.

I think Klipsch should bring though they would seriously impact the sales of their other lines and cost more to manufacture then simple 2 ways.

I've never listened to the klf-10s so can't speak there.

I could not disagree more... the KLF is a fine speaker, fine... But it's not a Heritage.

I've owned my share of both... if I wanted to rock, I might take a KLF however if I wanted refinement with realistic spacial qualities, I am taking the cornwall every time.

that's my personal choice, yours is probably different.

Moray, the spec sheet says the CWII tweeter uses poly. I guess Klipsch may have made a change somewhere after the original ones were gone. I wonder if you can even get phenolic replacements from Klipsch anymore. I will give you the mids being phenolic should sound better but it may also depend on the frequency range used.

The two way thing is referencing a two way that crosses above around 1-1.2K. Unless you are using small drivers near crossover, it will be hard pressed to be as articulate and well defined in that crossover area.

Again, almost all the parts are the same or very close. Slight tweaks in the crossovers between CW1, CWII, and KLF-30 when you look at the diagrams. Nothing huge there either. I guess it depends on the room also. I find the KLF-30's at least make a good compromise. No doesn't sound as full at the bottom, nor as loose as a CW but everyone listens for different things and likes certain things, even if it is coloring.

FYI... I've also owned:

5 sets of k-horns

2 sets of klf-30s

1 set of Cornwall IIs

1 set of Forte IIs

1 set of La Scalas

1 set of Heresy 1.5s

1 set of Heresy IIs

so I have also been all over the Heritage map and they were not just listened to for 15 mins.most were in my house for at least a couple of years except the La Scalas at only about a year.

One of my sets of home built speakers also uses KLF-20 woofers so I know what they are capable of doing in a 5 cubic foot box tuned to 31hz. No slouches. That said I don't need to line up as just a heritage or KLF lover, I like the speakers I built more because I design them to compromise on what I allow, not what a company allows with a specific budget.

Most Klipschs make good compromises for the investment.

[moray james]

Wow... looks great. That is a lot of dedication for a klf.

I kind of wonder why the KLF-20 and KLF-30's are not thought of as highly as Heritage (lack of respect ). My thoughts is they are just as much Heritage as Heritage.

- Better mid horns than the exponential horns but same drivers

- Same tweeters

- 2 10" drivers in the 20's that can pretty much keep up with a Cornwall and blow away a Heresy

- 12" drivers in the 30's are used in the Jubilees that can almost keep up with a Khorn.

Sounds like Heritage or maybe Super Heritage to me other than their more slender bodies.

I think Klipsch should bring though they would seriously impact the sales of their other lines and cost more to manufacture then simple 2 ways.

I've never listened to the klf-10s so can't speak there.

I could not disagree more... the KLF is a fine speaker, fine... But it's not a Heritage.

I've owned my share of both... if I wanted to rock, I might take a KLF however if I wanted refinement with realistic spacial qualities, I am taking the cornwall every time.

that's my personal choice, yours is probably different.

Moray, the spec sheet says the CWII tweeter uses poly. I guess Klipsch may have made a change somewhere after the original ones were gone. I wonder if you can even get phenolic replacements from Klipsch anymore. I will give you the mids being phenolic should sound better but it may also depend on the frequency range used.

The two way thing is referencing a two way that crosses above around 1-1.2K. Unless you are using small drivers near crossover, it will be hard pressed to be as articulate and well defined in that crossover area.

Again, almost all the parts are the same or very close. Slight tweaks in the crossovers between CW1, CWII, and KLF-30 when you look at the diagrams. Nothing huge there either. I guess it depends on the room also. I find the KLF-30's at least make a good compromise. No doesn't sound as full at the bottom, nor as loose as a CW but everyone listens for different things and likes certain things, even if it is coloring.

FYI... I've also owned:

5 sets of k-horns

2 sets of klf-30s

1 set of Cornwall IIs

1 set of Forte IIs

1 set of La Scalas

1 set of Heresy 1.5s

1 set of Heresy IIs

so I have also been all over the Heritage map and they were not just listened to for 15 mins.most were in my house for at least a couple of years except the La Scalas at only about a year.

One of my sets of home built speakers also uses KLF-20 woofers so I know what they are capable of doing in a 5 cubic foot box tuned to 31hz. No slouches. That said I don't need to line up as just a heritage or KLF lover, I like the speakers I built more because I design them to compromise on what I allow, not what a company allows with a specific budget.

Most Klipschs make good compromises for the investment.

Klipsch data sheets don't always reflect reality. I will put my nickle down that the stock Cornwall ll uses a K79 with a phenolic diaphragm, lets see if some owners or past dealers can confirm that. As far as I know Klipsch will sell you phenolic K79 diaphragms but I don't know the cost as I don't use them since I first bought the titanium diaphragms.

As far at the two way thing goes Klipsch has a bad habit of running horns down too low You can find examples of K700 crossed over at 650Hz. You can maintain response that low but you lose pattern control and an octave above horn cut off is a good rule so heritage and legend series all fall into that basket. I think that the CF3 or CF4 (both use the same horn) do a much better job in the mid compared to a K600 or K700 or the K702 used in the KLF20/30 since the crossover is centred around 1500 Hz.. The K510 and the K402 would both be better though I imagine the CF3/4 horn is close to the sound quality of a K510 since the size is similar and Roy probably designed the CF horn as well. The horn (mid) in the Quartet, Forte ll and Chorus ll is also a very good sounding horn though not designed as a wide band horn it is a mid horn design only.

You are right about Klipsch making good compromises but I also agree they are not always the ones I would choose to make. I have taken the time and spent some coin on Klipsch to listen as well more in fact than any other product since I was so impressed with what I heard and knew that I could learn a lot from the Klipsch line up. Klipsch I have owned are

RB61

Heresy (almost H2 by build date)

H3 (two sets both heavily modified)

Quartet (Very heavily modified)

Forte (heavily modified)

Forte ll (two sets one heavily modified)

KLF20 (three sets two heavily modified, love these woofers)

CF3

came very close to owning a pair of Cornwall ll but failed to pull the trigger

Have had the opportunity to listen to several sets of Khorns and LaScala. Where Klipsch have always fallen a little short is in the Quality of their drivers but for the money I can't complain but they don't make it to the Altec or JBL level. Never the less PWK did make good compromises as you said and I agree they are hard to beat in a lot of ways for the cost and used they represent great value and they respond very well to modification and a little love. By the way I dropped a single KLF20 woofer into a Quartet and added 2.5 ounces of dead weight to the passive radiators for some of the very best Klipsch bass you will hear. I plana larger cabinet for my KLF20 woofers to mate up to a pair of EV DH1A tweeters in a Karlson K-Tube based two way. I hope that more folks take the Klipsch ride as we both have done. I think you deserve a gold star for your devotion to Khorns I am impressed. I hope also that more folks look to Klipsch for inspiration to do some DIY. It is easy and most gratifying to modify Klipsch gear and then make that your segway into designs of your own.

Thanks for the exchange Peter. We may not always agree but it matters not I think that we both love Klipsch and that we have both been inspired by PWK and the legacy that he left. Best regards Moray James.

[pzannucci]

Moray,

You should find one of the old Olson books. I had one for years. Very enlightening though got lost in the moves over the past 35 + years. It really helps understand what is going on at horn crossover.

I've built Frazier Dixielander (kind of) and other types of horns, along with some mid-horns from plexi among other things. Interesting to say the least.

As for my KLF-30s, this thread makes me wonder if I need to strip my texture paint off and see how dinged up they really are. Bought them on a whim, pretty scratched up. My pristine modified pair went to a friend of mine a long time ago with a set of hand build JBL 15" subs used by Revel. https://www.flickr.com/photos/hamzy/425606799/lightbox/ .

If I can make my veneer look this good, it'll be worth the pain.

Enjoy!!!

[cradeldorf]

Excellent looking rebuild Klipschtastic, I've only got about 1/2 hour of listening time on the 30's I picked up yesterday but I am impressed on their performance, and my baffles are taped on at this point. Need a complete rebuild. Keep up the good work.