joessportster Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 I am wondering where people feel Freq. ranges start and stop IE... where does sub bass start / stop, where does mid bass start / stop, mid, and high's I heard midbass slam once that was astounding, yet have no idea where that would lie in the freq. range Generally speaking I know I cannot get exact, but It may help me with a project to have an Idea of where these start / stop Joe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 Great question, I will be watching this thread. I have done some experiments, but had no luck. I can make the chest slams happen using music, but using a frequency sweep, I cannot. Does that mean it is multiple frequencies at once, or does that mean the slam occurs on the initial excursion of the frequency? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 isn't it listener and room dependent where something begins and where it ends? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted April 12, 2014 Author Share Posted April 12, 2014 I would imagine that a room effects the freq. However I am also sure there is a type rule of thumb. Designers of speakers can not possibly account for every room a speaker is to be used in and therefore must start somewhere when designing a speaker I Know I can not get exacts here I am looking for the rule of thumb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 I see what you are saying... instead of an exact figure, perhaps it's a range? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 (edited) There are a million opinions on this, so the only thing I can figure is that the answer is subjective. Schu is right I think, the room has a bunch to do with it, and even the size of a person probably does. One thing is usually agreed upon. It has to be loud. I have heard about 120db, but there again, that is a subjective number. Edited April 12, 2014 by mustang guy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeker Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 (edited) Very interesting topic. Although so very subjective there does lie a point between kz and hz and im sure somebody will read my post and correct and even take it further. For klipsch made horn loaded speakers providing the finest most efficient noise possible the response in range varies o so very much from say polk so jbl and obviously klipsch all have different specs to graph what is optimum for that mid bass slam. I just heard this in its finest only days ago. It takes a machine to truly measure anything in sound. I may be pointing out the obvious although it is truly that simple. I love that midbass slam you speak of and i love the subwoofer bass even when distorted which darn near every one of us are actually appreciating distorted bass(TRUE STATEMENT 100%). I am not about to go into great detail. Because i know i will have so much resentment towards me and truth hurts when i know what i have appreciated at all levels for years only to recently understand that excursion only provides distortion(THIS IS PURE FACT AS WELL). I can only leave it at that. I understand the equipment used to measure and have heard truly a large variety of different perfection in sound although what i know as a fact now can only be explained by others so much greater knowledge in noise than myself. The measurment between all the in between factors are so very simple. In my opinion people should really look at efficiency as well as horn loaded noise dispersion before grabbing for db's and even the ones that have provided me with my views will argue with me and once again that will likely develope into knew very useful measurments and usable information. From this point i can only hope one of them comment and slap me in the skull so we can maybe understand the true specs of these in between points. cheers! EDIT PS I MAY DELETE OR ALTER. I STATED FACT ALTHOUGH MAY HAVE RELEASED TO MUCH INFO AS I WROTE. Edited April 12, 2014 by beeker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 Would this help? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeker Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 Sure does for me! sweet chart/graph! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeker Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 Thats actually i would believe 1/2 to the actual formula to what i have in mind sparked by originally what Joe posted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted April 12, 2014 Author Share Posted April 12, 2014 Willland, that's a lot of help, It doesn't show mid bass but I guess one could safely assume it would be in like the last part of the bass and the lowest parts of the midrange Heres what brought this subject up. A few years ago I was swapping speakers around and I ended up with a pair of Urei 813c speakers, I was not at all impressed with the highs as they were fairly harsh, the mids were ok and bass rolled of at 50hz I was listening to "Sometimes God Smiles, track 20 "Prism" and the strike of the tom was so hard and realistic I was BLOWN AWAY, I have checked every speaker since attempting to reproduce the sound without success Now since I am trying to get the oris from Blair which will cover from about 150hz up to 20Khz I want to try and find approx where the toms lie in the freq spectrum. I would build a bass cabinet to try covering 20hz up to 180 hz (I have found having the low on the horn overlap on the high end of the bass cabinet adds to cohearance ) I am guessing at about 30 hz overlap, of course this will be adjusted according to sound There is no way the 8" lowther can reproduce the mid bass IMPACT I am referencing however if it does not fall in to the range of the bass cabinet I will live without it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 Just looking at the thread title I was going to answer DC to light. Most are pretty well set, but I've set for my own purposes sub-bass being all frequencies where bass is inherently non-directional to a human. I place this at 32hz and below for my own purposes, with the sub crossed over beginning at 60hz. My opinion of those claiming you need more than one sub is that it's because their main speakers don't go low enough to start with. Personally, I think one can :"cheat" a little with speakers that go to at least 50hz and still not hear significant directionality. As others have mentioned, this one has the potential to be second or third only to "analog vs. digital" and "cables" as a magnet for members looking for a rumble. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted April 12, 2014 Author Share Posted April 12, 2014 Just looking at the thread title I was going to answer DC to light. Most are pretty well set, but I've set for my own purposes sub-bass being all frequencies where bass is inherently non-directional to a human. I place this at 32hz and below for my own purposes, with the sub crossed over beginning at 60hz. My opinion of those claiming you need more than one sub is that it's because their main speakers don't go low enough to start with. Personally, I think one can :"cheat" a little with speakers that go to at least 50hz and still not hear significant directionality. As others have mentioned, this one has the potential to be second or third only to "analog vs. digital" and "cables" as a magnet for members looking for a rumble. Dave So dave let me ask how you feel about Overlapping the 2 (speakers / sub) ?? do you find it hard to get a speed match ?? IE... you certainly would not want to overlap and have the sub substantially slower in the overlap range (or at all actually) But I would think it would be much more noticeable in the overlap range. On past setup's I found somewhere between 10 and 30hz overlap added to coherence, Better integration between the horn and the bass cabinet (not horn loaded) Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 My ears have never found it very touchy. I'll let you know how my new sub works out. Still have to get a weekend with the PAW available to get the formica on, but have the amp and speaker all ready to go. I'll adjust it by ear using pipe organ recordings with 32' stops (low c=16.5 hz). Then, I'll invite Carl over, who is the best sub guy I know of, to tweak with his expertise. I'll be interested to see how close I am to the measured balance. The last sub I used with my K'horns was a sealed box place in the right back corner of the room. Don't recall anyone ever discovering it, and I would forget about it. So, that is my definition of success. Carl's IB's are a good 15 feet to the right of the main speakers and 9 feet up on the wall. No way you can tell as they blend seamless with the speakers in a perfect image. That's why I am certain of the figures I stated above. Not science, just ears. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 Many years ago the "EV Bible" was around. It was mostly for sound reinforcement. One recommendation they gave was that if you want more guts in the bass, turn up the qualizer band at 120 Hz, rather than much lower. It is interesting that the diagram (very, very nice) shows slam - punch in the region. For purposes of discussion I'd say the low end of regular bass is 41 Hz. That is because, IIRC, that is the freq of the open E string on the electric bass and bass fiddle. So, I don't know about defining regions. We could say that low bass is someplace in the octave between 40 and 80 Hz. Then we get into midbass. That puts the midbass in the first harmonic of bass (which I think is called second overtone in music lingo). WMcD 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 (edited) Bass is for most of us into music or HT is 20 Hz up to 200-300 Hz. But, for subs, it stops at roughly 100-150 Hz. The midbass slam start 50-60 Hz and can go up the the 200-300 range. Subsonic bass is under 20 Hz. I think this is kinda what the OP was looking for. As far as needing more than one sub, it has nothing to do with the main speakers. It is about the distributed bass for the room response. SInce bass wave length are longer than most rooms, there will be peaks and dips resulting in uneven bass in the room. Even a good 2 channel system can benefit from subwoofers. Can a system really be HI FI if one is not getting the best bass possible in the room? Edited April 13, 2014 by derrickdj1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 Many years ago the "EV Bible" was around. It was mostly for sound reinforcement. One recommendation they gave was that if you want more guts in the bass, turn up the qualizer band at 120 Hz, rather than much lower. It is interesting that the diagram (very, very nice) shows slam - punch in the region. WMcD Yes. If you crossover to your sub at 80 Hz, then play your main speakers without the sub, then the sub without the mains, while playing tympani or bass drum beats, you will find that the "Ba" in the "Bawoom" comes through your mains (mostly above 80 Hz), and the "woom" comes through your sub (mostly below 80 Hz). At least, that's what I found. To me, Low Bass is below 80 Hz, Mid Bass (including most impact, punch, slam, etc.) is 80 to 200Hz, and Upper Bass (tending toward midrange) is 200 to 300 Hz. Naturally, if you play an instrument with plentiful overtones, even low notes will have much higher frequency content, potentially confusing the situation. So, the lowest note on most pianos -- 27.5 Hz -- may sound higher than the same note on a tuba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 Gil, that's the problem. I listen to pipe organs about 20 percent of the time. With you definition, I am losing about an octave. With your definition, most audiophiles really don't need a sub for music as their speakers can get that low. I'd also argue that the lowest strings on a true grand piano need more than that. I've theorized that is the reason I preferred piano on the Frazier Elevens to the Klipschorns. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted April 13, 2014 Author Share Posted April 13, 2014 So been E-mailing back and forth with Bert D. with Oris, and he agrees that overlap of approx 30hz is a good idea, But he says make the active crossover at a 24 slope as I know nothing about the slope or how to achieve it I will use marshand xm9 crossover I am sure he can set that up.............Nice virtual system, sure hope I can put it together Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm That's a link to the chart posted upthread. The one in the link is interactive and rather informative, I encourage folks to check it out. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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