Jump to content

LaScala Sonic Detail Improvement for only $220.98


ClaudeJ1

Recommended Posts

I found a really affordable improvement to the midrange detail in a LaScala many years ago by using a woofer with a higher BL product, Klipsch K-43. Parts Express has a similar woofer by Eminence at a bargain price!!

It dropped from $129.95 to $110.49 each. With Free Shipping, This Eminence makes a Kappa 15C woofer which is 4 ohms, has a lighter cone, and higher BL product than a K33 woofer. According to Hornresp, a simple woofer swap is all that is needed, since you can still use whatever crossover you already have.

This woofer swap sacrifices a few hz. at the bottom, but makes the response of the bass WAY smoother overall and kicks up the response near 400 Hz. by about 5 db. Female vocals, saxophone, guitars, piano, you name it sound more detailed as a result. La Scala fans rejoice!

Here's the Hornresp plots. Gray is the K-33 stock woofer. Black is the Eminence Kappa 15C.

post-20774-0-90140000-1397695986_thumb.j

Edited by ClaudeJ1
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So that would be the same for all other heritage minus the heresy?

I haven't run curves on the Khorn because I'm no longer interested in it. I like horns that fire in your face rather than crawl on the wall. I would not have a Khorn, LaScala, MWM, or my own Quarter Pies without two or four Tapped Horn subs, PERIOD. The only way to combat room modes is to have properly placed subs around the room, whether they are horn based (like mine) or not. It's also possible the Cornwall would benefit from an Eminence 15C, but that's not on my radar either. Some people just like a hump at 90 Hz. and a dip between 300 and 600 Hz with higher IM distortion., and call it "slam," but not me. I like ALL horns, and big is the key. A Belle is a LaScala with a shorter midrange horn and a Xover which is 100 Hz. higher, so it benefits even more from this upgrade.

The "fire it at the listener" is part of what makes the Jube, the LaScala, Belle, and MWMs with subs better than the vanilla Khorn, IMHO (unless you do tri-amping with Digital Xover, PEQ, and Time Delays, then all bets are off wioth the Khorn, but the Jubilee is still better). If PWK were alive, I would argue the point with him. He was human and wasn't always right about everything. But he was right about so many things and was a huge influence on me in my youth and even today.

I had two pairs of Khorns and really enjoyed them for over 30 years with a mono LaScala in the middle, just like PWK's system, which I heard at his house. Compared to what I have now, I was bathing in my own ignorance and apathy. BUT in the age of multi channel digital sound, infra sonic bass to a single digit Hertz and super subwoofers, all the bass horns (and 99% of speakers in general) roll off too much for my taste and all require subs. If the music only goes to 41 Hz. from the E string on a Fender Bass, fine, but it's usually rolled off until that point, when all science says it should be rolled UP. None of the Klipsch speakers or any other brand, for that matter, do this. There's been bass capability in CD's down in the teens for 30 years, and very people ever felt it. There are two full octaves of sub bass that I missed for so many years and I no longer have to do that. Those that have it already know exactly what I mean and those that don't will defend their denial to the death (like porting a LaScala, heaven help us). It's a free country.

The only thing I'm sorry about is it took me this long to figure it out, but I had other priorities in my life, like feeding my family. If the sub bass capability is there, and the music doesn't ask it to do anything, it's still there waiting until a time when it does, and I like to be ready whenever it happens. Whether I"m playing a plane crash, fireworks, dubstep, or crappy recordings from the 70's, speakers should not limit the bandwidth of reproduction in a listening room, period. Great bass below 40-60 Hz. costs as much as the entire system to do "right." Very few people are willing to pay the price, and that's ok with me. BUT, regardless, you must get the midrange RIGHT. I have been spoiled by K-402's. I'm jusst trying to help everyone work up to that reference standard without all the R&D I have cone through at my own expense of time and dollars.

I know this is my own form of Heresy for some, but I have ears, and tons of curves to prove it. I have an engineering background, so I make no apologies for my opinions working against the industry's "emotional testing" the incomplete opinions that accompany those methods. You get what you pay for and internet information is free, so unless you prove it to yourself, it's all worthless, even from me. I only seek the truth.

Those who have heard and felt horn bass and sub bass from an all horn system want to go home and throw rocks at their DR woofers. I tried to compromise also, but it didn't work. In the meantime, PWK said the "midrange is where we live" yet, even though the speaker measure OK in the range where the woofer section hands of the duties to a midrange horn, the response just wasn't fast enough to match and I'm trying to help people fix that for even greater enjoyment. My cause is noble.

Edited by ClaudeJ1
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know this is my own form of Heresy for some, but I have ears, and tons of curves to prove it. I have an engineering background, so I make no apologies for my opinions working against the industry's "emotional testing" the incomplete opinions that accompany those methods. You get what you pay for and internet information is free, so unless you prove it to yourself, it's all worthless, even from me. I only seek the truth.

Those who have heard and felt horn bass and sub bass from an all horn system want to go home and throw rocks at their DR woofers. I tried to compromise also, but it didn't work. In the meantime, PWK said the "midrange is where we live" yet, even though the speaker measure OK in the range where the woofer section hands of the duties to a midrange horn, the response just wasn't fast enough to match and I'm trying to help people fix that for even greater enjoyment. My cause is noble.

So many of us hear you but without actual listening experiences and knowing we all hear things differently it is impossible to understand. I for one wish it were possible to visit all of you that have such convincing things to say about sound reproduction and hear first hand what you are talking about.

My custom built LaScalla bases (without getting inside them outwardly they are identical) am considering building bases and opening up the doghouses to enhance the base. I detect you do not agree with this modification,would enjoy hearing why in non engineering terms.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know this is my own form of Heresy for some, but I have ears, and tons of curves to prove it. I have an engineering background, so I make no apologies for my opinions working against the industry's "emotional testing" the incomplete opinions that accompany those methods. You get what you pay for and internet information is free, so unless you prove it to yourself, it's all worthless, even from me. I only seek the truth.

Those who have heard and felt horn bass and sub bass from an all horn system want to go home and throw rocks at their DR woofers. I tried to compromise also, but it didn't work. In the meantime, PWK said the "midrange is where we live" yet, even though the speaker measure OK in the range where the woofer section hands of the duties to a midrange horn, the response just wasn't fast enough to match and I'm trying to help people fix that for even greater enjoyment. My cause is noble.

So many of us hear you but without actual listening experiences and knowing we all hear things differently it is impossible to understand. I for one wish it were possible to visit all of you that have such convincing things to say about sound reproduction and hear first hand what you are talking about.

My custom built LaScalla bases (without getting inside them outwardly they are identical) am considering building bases and opening up the doghouses to enhance the base. I detect you do not agree with this modification,would enjoy hearing why in non engineering terms.

I actually agree with that bass reflex modification because it IS an improvement, but it just doesn't go far enough, as opposed to adding a sub. I'm pretty sure that same method would apply to the 15C woofer. If it did, then one could improve the Midrange AND the Bass on a LaScala, while raising the whole thing up a bit higher for better driver positioning. However the Bass reflex mod is not as as good as a pair of subwoofers for people who want the very best (Sears "good, better, best" at play here), which is more controllable because you have separate amplifiers and can customize the setup for your room. For a LaScala/Blle, I would recommend a Tuba HT horn sub since you can cross it at 100 Hz. Tapped Horns get funky above 60 Hz. so those would be reserved for a Khorn, Jubilee, or MWM. OR, if you already have ported your LaScalas, you could still put 15C's in there, AND go to Tapped Horns and get the best of all worlds.

Edited by ClaudeJ1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Claude, a question. The Type AA crossovers have a 2.5 mH inductor that is a 6 dB slope starting at 260 Hz. Is your curve of the woofer alone? Or of both , and did you open the 3 inch slot in the stock boxes to 5 or 6 inches? Or is this just specs against specs?

It's pure specs against specs at the moment. When I owned 3 front LaScalas (several others over the years), and less sophisticated measuring and simulation gear, my ears and test CD's told me the difference was worth the upgrade to a higher BL woofer (K43). The 15C is a bargain at this very moment, and works even better. As to the inductor, you are assuming a pure 4 ohm value for your stated 260 hz. frequency. K-33's impedance usually works out to be closer to 5.6-6 ohms working inside the horn which rolls it off closer to 330-400 range

Regardless, with the 15C, you have a woofer whose high end "pushes UP" against the 2.5 mH Klipsch inductor in the AA networks and it will still give you at least 3 db more midrange than a K-33 (as opposed to the pure woofer curve I uploaded here). Try it, you WILL hear the improvement.

Or you could remove the inductor altogether and ADD a MiniDSP(or two), another stereo power amp(or two), PEQ your K-33, AND add a bit of time delay to your treble section, along with any horn sub. BUT all of that is WAY more involved and more expensive than a simple woofer swap.

Tweaks of the world unite!

Edited by ClaudeJ1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Kappa 15C woofer specs show 5.2 ohms voice coil ohms. The old K-33 is 3.2 ohms, it also looks to be 2 or 3 dB louder/w input, so not a drop in for the stock crossover. How and why would one cut the 3 inch slot wider to say 5 or 6 inches for a woofer that would result in less lower bass response in their LaScala?

Cutting the slot bigger was never in MY post, that was all YOU and I would NOT do it. What I propose is a cheap and easy woofer swap, and nothing more. Where did you get that incorrect information on the 15C? Here's the Eminence data from the PDF with the Le boxed in RED. Plus for your money you are getting a bigger voice coil, a beefier magnet (higher BL than a K33, which started all this), and 4.5 times the power handling. What more do you want??? I'd be willing to bet this would improve a Cornwall also, but I will not pursue that simulation.

post-20774-0-24460000-1397749534_thumb.j

Edited by ClaudeJ1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, Mr. Mach-1,

The error is on Parts Express web site spash page. I have alerted them to this and I hope they correct it in short order. If you go there and click on the "Manufacturer's Specifications" button on the right, the PDF will pop up that matches the one I posted. This is the correct data. I'm sure their Web Guru didn't do that on purpose, but it's always a good idea to look to the manufacturer's data, just in case there is an error like this, which is easy for any human to do, especially since Eminence makes so many 15" woofers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I found a really affordable improvement to the midrange detail in a LaScala many years ago by using a woofer with a higher BL product. Parts Express has a similar woofer by Eminence at a bargain price!!

It dropped from $129.95 to $110.49 each. With Free Shipping, This Eminence makes a Kappa 15C woofer which is 4 ohms, has a lighter cone, and higher BL product than a K33 woofer. According to Hornresp, a simple woofer swap is all that is needed, since you can still use whatever crossover you already have.

This woofer swap sacrifices a few hz. at the bottom, but makes the response of the bass WAY smoother overall and kicks up the response near 400 Hz. by about 5 db. Female vocals, saxophone, guitars, piano, you name it sound more detailed as a result. La Scala fans rejoice!

Here's the Hornresp plots. Gray is the K-33 stock woofer. Black is the Eminence Kappa 15C.

attachicon.gifEminenceKappa15CvsK33.jpg

I wonder where the K-43 would fall into this graph?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wonder where the K-43 would fall into this graph?

To a lesser extent, yes, and that is the driver that convinced me about the higher BL product producing more detail in the midrange, back then. I know others who prefer the K-43 in the LaScala. Klipsch originally went to that driver for the MWM and LaScala STRICTLY for greater power handling, but a side effect of the larger voice coil, bigger magnet, and higher BL product, was it tips the energy more towards the higher end while thinning the bass a bit.

The 15C has the exact same bass smoothing thing at a bargain price, but also has even better response on the high end.

OK, so here's the curve of the K43 (Black) vs. the K-33 (gray). It is the thing that convinced me tht K43's were a much better woofer in a LaScala than a K33 and to model the 15C and share the information. With either upgrade, you lose about 5 Hz on the bottom end but gain a much stronger midbass definition and MidRange!!

Effectively, the 15C is like a poor man's K43 with even better high end and great power handling (see the Eminence spec. You can't beat this woofer at only 110 bucks.

post-20774-0-54220000-1397759098_thumb.j

post-20774-0-60780000-1397759252_thumb.j

Edited by ClaudeJ1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't believe how this woofer smooths out the frequency response in the La Scala.

The Table Tuba or Tuba 60 would also make for a great accompany with this woofer mod.

Well, the trade-off is is doesn't try to resonate the dog house to get a teeny boost at 55 Hz. like the K33 does. The K43 convinced my ears, and the cuves on the 15C even more convincing, but both are an improvement sonically over the K33. But you do lose about 5 Hz. down below, and gain so much more up top.

Edited by ClaudeJ1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

ClaudeJ1, Is this truly a unbolt/unscrew the K33, screw in the Kappa 15C or is more work necessary?

Yep, just take out the old and bolt in the new. No extra work necessary. Nothing to it. If you go and do it, please report your findings here after listening.

Also, keep in mind that AFAIK, all Klipsch woofers are made by Eminence, so it's not as radical as changing to other brands.

Edited by ClaudeJ1
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...