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LaScala Sonic Detail Improvement for only $220.98


ClaudeJ1

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Xmax of the Kappa 15C (the linear region) looks a little on the lean side, granted the driver's Xlim specs in way up there at 11.2 mm :ph34r: .

What does HornResp say voltage will be when Xmax is reached?

With a 13 VRMS input, you are above 40W and at about 120 db (stupid loud IMHO). This should still be fairly linear, but if the LaScalas are cranked up that much, there should be a 60 Hz. Highpass filter in place anyhow. Max excursion is reached at 30 Hz. and it's 3.5 mm at that point. So to avoid these mechanical non-linearities, the HP filter will do it's job. So I suppose if you wanted to be ultra conservative and hit it with a 42 Volt input, resulting in 450 watts of power and over 130 db of output, you would need to Highpass filter it at 80-100 Hz. with a 4th order Butterworth. But that would be a peak value of 10.6 amps and I don't think the voice coil could handle that kind of abuse for very long.

Why worry about such an extreme when SANE Loud is about 90 db average, which only requires 1/4 watt. The whole point of horn loading is to make sure the woofer excursion never exceeds 1.5 mm. during full output peaks. This was the reason the Plexiglas Khorn was built. To use laser interferometry to measure actual woofer excursion and I remember reading somewhere that 1/16" was the acceptable figure for low distortion in a Khorn.

Edited by ClaudeJ1
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I wonder where the K-43 would fall into this graph?

To a lesser extent, yes, and that is the driver that convinced me about the higher BL product producing more detail in the midrange, back then. I know others who prefer the K-43 in the LaScala. Klipsch originally went to that driver for the MWM and LaScala STRICTLY for greater power handling, but a side effect of the larger voice coil, bigger magnet, and higher BL product, was it tips the energy more towards the higher end while thinning the bass a bit.

The 15C has the exact same bass smoothing thing at a bargain price, but also has even better response on the high end.

OK, so here's the curve of the K43 (Black) vs. the K-33 (gray). It is the thing that convinced me tht K43's were a much better woofer in a LaScala than a K33 and to model the 15C and share the information. With either upgrade, you lose about 5 Hz on the bottom end but gain a much stronger midbass definition and MidRange!!

Effectively, the 15C is like a poor man's K43 with even better high end and great power handling (see the Eminence spec. You can't beat this woofer at only 110 bucks.

attachicon.gifLS_K43vsK33.jpg

attachicon.gifLS_EminenceKappa15CvsK43.jpg

Cool! Thanks for posting Claude

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So that would be the same for all other heritage minus the heresy?

I haven't run curves on the Khorn because I'm no longer interested in it. I like horns that fire in your face rather than crawl on the wall. I would not have a Khorn, LaScala, MWM, or my own Quarter Pies without two or four Tapped Horn subs, PERIOD. The only way to combat room modes is to have properly placed subs around the room, whether they are horn based (like mine) or not. It's also possible the Cornwall would benefit from an Eminence 15C, but that's not on my radar either. Some people just like a hump at 90 Hz. and a dip between 300 and 600 Hz with higher IM distortion., and call it "slam," but not me. I like ALL horns, and big is the key. A Belle is a LaScala with a shorter midrange horn and a Xover which is 100 Hz. higher, so it benefits even more from this upgrade.

The "fire it at the listener" is part of what makes the Jube, the LaScala, Belle, and MWMs with subs better than the vanilla Khorn, IMHO (unless you do tri-amping with Digital Xover, PEQ, and Time Delays, then all bets are off wioth the Khorn, but the Jubilee is still better). If PWK were alive, I would argue the point with him. He was human and wasn't always right about everything. But he was right about so many things and was a huge influence on me in my youth and even today.

I had two pairs of Khorns and really enjoyed them for over 30 years with a mono LaScala in the middle, just like PWK's system, which I heard at his house. Compared to what I have now, I was bathing in my own ignorance and apathy. BUT in the age of multi channel digital sound, infra sonic bass to a single digit Hertz and super subwoofers, all the bass horns (and 99% of speakers in general) roll off too much for my taste and all require subs. If the music only goes to 41 Hz. from the E string on a Fender Bass, fine, but it's usually rolled off until that point, when all science says it should be rolled UP. None of the Klipsch speakers or any other brand, for that matter, do this. There's been bass capability in CD's down in the teens for 30 years, and very people ever felt it. There are two full octaves of sub bass that I missed for so many years and I no longer have to do that. Those that have it already know exactly what I mean and those that don't will defend their denial to the death (like porting a LaScala, heaven help us). It's a free country.

The only thing I'm sorry about is it took me this long to figure it out, but I had other priorities in my life, like feeding my family. If the sub bass capability is there, and the music doesn't ask it to do anything, it's still there waiting until a time when it does, and I like to be ready whenever it happens. Whether I"m playing a plane crash, fireworks, dubstep, or crappy recordings from the 70's, speakers should not limit the bandwidth of reproduction in a listening room, period. Great bass below 40-60 Hz. costs as much as the entire system to do "right." Very few people are willing to pay the price, and that's ok with me. BUT, regardless, you must get the midrange RIGHT. I have been spoiled by K-402's. I'm jusst trying to help everyone work up to that reference standard without all the R&D I have cone through at my own expense of time and dollars.

I know this is my own form of Heresy for some, but I have ears, and tons of curves to prove it. I have an engineering background, so I make no apologies for my opinions working against the industry's "emotional testing" the incomplete opinions that accompany those methods. You get what you pay for and internet information is free, so unless you prove it to yourself, it's all worthless, even from me. I only seek the truth.

Those who have heard and felt horn bass and sub bass from an all horn system want to go home and throw rocks at their DR woofers. I tried to compromise also, but it didn't work. In the meantime, PWK said the "midrange is where we live" yet, even though the speaker measure OK in the range where the woofer section hands of the duties to a midrange horn, the response just wasn't fast enough to match and I'm trying to help people fix that for even greater enjoyment. My cause is noble.

WTH is with the wall of text... this isn't a confessional, just a simple question of does it work or not. :)

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WTH is with the wall of text... this isn't a confessional, just a simple question of does it work or not.

That is NOT the way you phrased the original question, you effectively asked about applying the 15C to everything in the line, excluding the Heresy, since it's a 12". Besides, this is what happens when I answer a post late at night after too much wine, music, and a movie. LOL. Forgive me for being human.

Edited by ClaudeJ1
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Xmax of the Kappa 15C (the linear region) looks a little on the lean side, granted the driver's Xlim specs in way up there at 11.2 mm :ph34r: .

What does HornResp say voltage will be when Xmax is reached?

One more thing. Xmax is typically an issue when working on SubWoofers, not bass/midbass horns. The idea for horn loading is to minimize Xmax for lower distortion. Even in horn subs. I have a clear plexiglass door to one of my Danleys' and with a flashlight, I can barely see the woofers move unless it's a house shaking thing going on. The Eminence made Danley twin 12's have an Xmax of 13mm and act like an 18" equivalent radiating surface (Sd). So horn loading 18's (or equivalent) makes them lower distortion too and you have to really be cranking some watts to get them to move much. The twin Danleys produce 100 db/watt each so it's 103 db for that little bit of power and they can hancle 2,000 watts. I only use 300 and it NEVER clips because I don't believer in abusing any acoustic transducer, including my ears.

Edited by ClaudeJ1
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I have been using this woofer in projects and in place of the K-33 for some time.

Works well.

Dave

Thanks for the additional feedback about this thing. I'm just trying to help others improve their sound by sharing what I have recently discovered. I'm glad the 15C has withstood the test of time with your projects. Good to know.

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I saw a reference to the BFM Tuba. Will the Eminence Kappa 15C be good for a Tuba HT as well?

I don't think so. NO. Use the drivers that BFM recommends. The 15C would be best in a LaScala, Belle, or MWM, but not necessarily in a Khorn, which I have not modeled, but I suspect there would be a huge loss of the low end. Although it would improve the high end of the bass in a Khorn also, and would work ONLY IF you are willing to add a Tapped Horn sub of some sort to improve the bass you might be killing off in the process. But i do feel the 15C is a great all around Klipsch replacement. It also handles way more power for the DB freaks that like to put a kilowatt though a pair of Khorns. The 15C would then, effectively, help prevent house fires. My woofers rarely see more than a watt or two, since I want to protect my hearing until I arrive at my final destination.

Edited by ClaudeJ1
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Interesting find and modeling data. Good work! I'd love to see if the predicted effect shows up in response testing.

So would I, but I don't own LaScalas anymore, so I'm hoping someone tries it. I'm confident about the 15C being even better because I did have K-43's in my 3 front LaScalas for about 1 year, and I certainly enjoyed superior midrange definition then. I was using 4 MWM with K33's as "subs" under the upside down R and L LaScalas and added VMPS large subs onto that setup also. Thinning out the "fake" low bass by 5 hz. in a LaScala was a worthwhile sacrifice to get better sounding piano, sax, guitar, and vocals, that's for sure.

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Very informative post Claude, Thanks. I am also relieved someone else here makes the same human error I do - "Besides, this is what happens when I answer a post late at night after too much wine, music, and a movie. LOL. Forgive me for being human." Bravo sir.

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I have been using this woofer in projects and in place of the K-33 for some time.

Works well.

Dave

yeah... but the question was, it enriches the midrange by creating more definition.

is that even possible based merely on some slightly less messureable distortion is the LF section?

Edited by Schu
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Guest David H
yeah... but the question was, it enriches the midrange by creating more definition.

I don't remember that question.

When I replaced the original K-33 with the 15C in a Cornwall , I noticed better bass definition less boom.

In my Lascala's the change was minimal. My initial impression was a smoother presentation, but hard to tell when swapping a new driver in for a 30 year old one.

Dave

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Thanks dave.

In the original post, the OP claimed much better midrange detail was. Accomplished by replacing the OEM LF driver with the eminence unit... the two seem unrelated to me unless somehow there is president for LF distortion plaguing mid range detail.

You guys are much smarter on this stuff than I am so that why I am bringing it up.

The most obvious part of this replacement is OP's claim it's a better driver... well duh. :)

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yeah... but the question was, it enriches the midrange by creating more definition.

I don't remember that question.

When I replaced the original K-33 with the 15C in a Cornwall , I noticed better bass definition less boom.

In my Lascala's the change was minimal. My initial impression was a smoother presentation, but hard to tell when swapping a new driver in for a 30 year old one.

Dave

Yes, that would be the higher BL at work. Stronger motor.

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The most obvious part of this replacement is OP's claim it's a better driver... well duh.

Speaking of "duhs", your comments indicate that you either have not looked at the curve or simply don't understand what it means. Which is it? It seems pretty obvious to those who have made favorable comments.

Edited by ClaudeJ1
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