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LaScala Sonic Detail Improvement for only $220.98


ClaudeJ1

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Hornresp is fine and all but I'd like to see real measurements. Has anyone done this? Real world and horn resp don't always meet.

Why don't you buy a 15C and measure it and share it here. Hornresp does a good job of meeting the real world, which is always worse than predicted at 1/48th octave resolution, but a 1/3 octave smoothing it's always pretty darn close. I measured the 140 Hz. peak in all my LaScalas, so the model agrees with that. I just don't have LaScalas anymore, otherwise I would have done the measurements already.

Are you a LaScala owner or just a curious data gatherer? I have been both.

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Hornresp is fine and all but I'd like to see real measurements. Has anyone done this? Real world and horn resp don't always meet.

Why don't you buy a 15C and measure it and share it here. Hornresp does a good job of meeting the real world, which is always worse than predicted at 1/48th octave resolution, but a 1/3 octave smoothing it's always pretty darn close. I measured the 140 Hz. peak in all my LaScalas, so the model agrees with that. I just don't have LaScalas anymore, otherwise I would have done the measurements already.

Are you a LaScala owner or just a curious data gatherer? I have been both.

I like the dirty curves no smoothing.

I have friends with La Scala's my bass horns are a little bigger. Just don't trust software predictions. From what I remember the k43 was chosen for power handling and to keep customers from blowing woofers but that the k33 was the original choice. It would be nice to see actual measurements of k33 k43 and the crites cast frame version.

Edited by seti
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Hornresp is fine and all but I'd like to see real measurements. Has anyone done this? Real world and horn resp don't always meet.

Seti...........Do you doubt the great and powerful Claude? He's been to Paul's house. :lol:

Gee thanks Mark. Not funny.

Edited by ClaudeJ1
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Hornresp is fine and all but I'd like to see real measurements. Has anyone done this? Real world and horn resp don't always meet.

Why don't you buy a 15C and measure it and share it here. Hornresp does a good job of meeting the real world, which is always worse than predicted at 1/48th octave resolution, but a 1/3 octave smoothing it's always pretty darn close. I measured the 140 Hz. peak in all my LaScalas, so the model agrees with that. I just don't have LaScalas anymore, otherwise I would have done the measurements already.

Are you a LaScala owner or just a curious data gatherer? I have been both.

I like the dirty curves no smoothing.

I have friends with La Scala's my bass horns are a little bigger. Just don't trust software predictions. From what I remember the k43 was chosen for power handling and to keep customers from blowing woofers but that the k33 was the original choice. It would be nice to see actual measurements of k33 k43 and the crites cast frame version.

I agree with you. I like 1/48th octave resolution AND the 1/3 kind. In fact I use Full ocatve smoothing in REW when I want to line up curves from different impedance drivers for better comparison, then go back to a higher res afterwards. I use all the tools in the box.

I'd like to see measured curves on LaScalas too, but I sure as heck am not going to buy them again and measure them just to satisfy doubter and haters here. SETI, if that's what you want to see, why don't you just go and do it yourself? Armchair quarterbacks don't help their team win. Also the fact that you don't trust software predictions is you own "disbelief system." Software modeling a design is not a substitute for building, measuring, and listening, agreed. But, it will save you a lot of sawdust and firewood in the process of trying to create something that works. I went though about 50 interations over a 6-month period before I built the Quarter Pies. Turns out the MWMs throat was the best, so the model agree with the original Klipsch design.

I modeled, designed, built, AND measured one Quarter Pie measured it before I published the plans. The software was accurate enough for me to achieve the bandwidth goal with the first build. Those that have heard it like it lot better than my LaScala-like short horn called an FH-1 that needed a 10 db boost to get to 60 Hz.. For that, I was just sharing, effectively, a "mini MWMs" which the original MWMs was my favorite woofer section (which is still a little better) but I simply did not have the room for it. That being said, I'm not immune to Beranek's law either (where because you built it, it's great, regardless of performance, LOL), so I try to measure everything.

I'm just sharing my experience with a K-43 in a LaScala, which, suprisingly had way better definition in the midrange to my ears. Yes the bass is thinner, but the bass in a regular LaScala isn't that great anyhow, except for people who love the sound of a 7 db peak at 140 Hz. and the reason why Roy PEQ's that out for the guys who create a "JubScala." Roy stated that the K-43's higher BL tilted the curve up and he was right. Less bass, more midrange with a K-43 vs. a K-33. The 15C's model EXACTLY matches bass portion of the K-43 in a LaScala but adds a further boost where it meets the K-400. I'm just trying to share some positive vibrations here, literally and figuratively. But if no one tries this, and they have the paralysis of analysis forever, that's fine too. No skin off my teeth.

Either way, I'm a happy former LaScala owner who has also progressed beyond Khorns, just like Mark1101 has. If I were to get Khorns again, I would PEQ them and put a K402 on top, I won't ever say never.

BTW, Mark, if you don't agree the K33's mass rolloff tanks above 300 Hz, according to my "great and powerful comments" (with curves to prove), why did Klipsch Pro create several iterations of Midbass module that crosses there and that YOU purchased to improve the sound of the MWM stack? Your actions speak louder than your words, and I'm really not appreciating your last comment on this thread.

Over the years, I was just trying to share something of value here, like "best bang for the buck." Sharing some benefits of my progress. I have been doing this since day one, as I evolved my system. I'm not done evolving it yet. I'm not done sharing unless I get fed up with the BS here, like some others who have left this board.

So my integrity is intact unlike some people who brag about how great their $25,000-100,000 system sounds on the web and never contribute anything of real value to the hi-fi communities.

I have shared enough tools and techniques so anyone can go out and replicate my results. It's not rocket science, where people die from mistakes. In the big picture, speaker design is supposed to be fun, not serious, unless you do it for a living.

Edited by ClaudeJ1
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Beefier, brand new driver from Eminence. Thanks DJK. At $153 each, it's not the same "bang for the buck" as the 15C at only $110, but still a good price. The extra Xmax doesn't improve the sound of the LaScala the way I outlined it in the original post. Even though the BL is higher than the K33 and about the same as the 15C, the extra cone mass lowers the midrange boost. The LFC is in black and clearly REDUCES the midrange response and doesn't do much for the bass. BUT it's still an improvement over the K33 in the midrange, so if you want to spend more money and play LaScalas stupid loud with the extra power handling and Xmax, go for it, it's your hearing, not mine. Unless of course it's your audience's hearing for a party in a reception hall we are talking about, then the headroom in the driver won't hurt you at all.

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Edited by ClaudeJ1
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Eminence no longer has the Kappa Pro 15C, even if PE does.

It looks to have been replaced with the Impero 15C which doesn't have as good a spec., Fs is higher and the cost is much higher.

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Eminence no longer has the Kappa Pro 15C, even if PE does.

It looks to have been replaced with the Impero 15C which doesn't have as good a spec., Fs is higher and the cost is much higher.

Well then, it looks like you guys need to stock up on 15C's!! You can't steal in slow motion, as the old saying goes. Otherwise, the 15LFC will have to do or maybe a Kappa 15A

Edited by ClaudeJ1
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I recently replaced the K-33 in my center La Scala with a steel frame K-43 since I read about the midrange improvement. I did not even have to guess if their was a difference it was immediately apparent. A lot of movie soundtracks have weak center dialogue and I wanted to improve the center midrange clarity. The K-43 did indeed make a difference. As DJK explained it the cone is stiffer on the K-43 which apparently makes for more articulate dialogue. I have enough sub woofage so I don't notice any bass loss plus I have Cornwall's in the rear.

Thanks guys!

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I recently replaced the K-33 in my center La Scala with a steel frame K-43 since I read about the midrange improvement. I did not even have to guess if their was a difference it was immediately apparent. A lot of movie soundtracks have weak center dialogue and I wanted to improve the center midrange clarity. The K-43 did indeed make a difference. As DJK explained it the cone is stiffer on the K-43 which apparently makes for more articulate dialogue. I have enough sub woofage so I don't notice any bass loss plus I have Cornwall's in the rear.

Thanks guys!

Thank you for your supportive post. I had noticed this about 4 or 5 years ago when I pulled K-43's out of my MWMs bins and put them in LaScalas just to see what would happen. Stiffer cone? AND Higher BL product? Better Midrange definition? Tighter bass? You BET!

After talking to Gary Gillum, who designed the MWM with PWK and later built hundreds of them for John Allen's HPS-4000 systems on the East Coast. So when he told me the K-33 was the original woofer for the MWMs, I got 4 of them and put them in MY MWMs, since I was using LaScala with K-43's for above 120 Hz. for midbass duty and using the 4 MWMs as bass extenders for the LaScalas. Sub bass to 20 hz. was handled by bass reflex Large VMPS subs, so there were LOTS of 15's working to move air!!

Basically, the Eminence Kappa 15C does exactly what a K-43 does in the bass, but with even better midrange/vocal clarity, as you point out. How can one go wrong for $110.99 with free shipping?

Edited by ClaudeJ1
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The Kappa 15C has only a Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax) 2.4 mm, that might be OK for lower-powered home use. I does have a mass corner of 248hz.

The Kappa Pro 15 LFC at Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax) 7.9 mm can play about 10dB louder at lower frequencies, the mass corner is 224hz.

The mass corner of the K33E (15162) is about 187hz.

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The Kappa 15C has only a Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax) 2.4 mm, that might be OK for lower-powered home use. I does have a mass corner of 248hz.

The Kappa Pro 15 LFC at Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax) 7.9 mm can play about 10dB louder at lower frequencies, the mass corner is 224hz.

The mass corner of the K33E (15162) is about 187hz.

Yep, and both of those improve the midrange in a LaScala. The 15 LFC is a very nice driver and if it's true they won't make the 15C anymore, the 15LFC is certainly even better for a commercial application for all the reasons DJK sited. I concur. Also, it's a very reasonable price.

Edited by ClaudeJ1
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BTW, in my Quarter Pie Horn, according to Hornresp, the 4 mm Xmax of the 15C produces 125 db with a 15 Watt input at the peak displacement point of 52 Hz. Good enough for me for $110.

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The Kappa 15C has only a Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax) 2.4 mm, that might be OK for lower-powered home use. I does have a mass corner of 248hz.

The Kappa Pro 15 LFC at Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax) 7.9 mm can play about 10dB louder at lower frequencies, the mass corner is 224hz.

The mass corner of the K33E (15162) is about 187hz.

Yep, and both of those improve the midrange in a LaScala. The 15 LFC is a very nice driver and if it's true they won't make the 15C anymore, the 15LFC is certainly even better for a commercial application for all the reasons DJK sited. I concur. Also, it's a very reasonable price.

The LFC seems to model exactly like a K-43 hmm....not bad for $150 and change.

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The Kappa 15C has only a Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax) 2.4 mm, that might be OK for lower-powered home use. I does have a mass corner of 248hz.

The Kappa Pro 15 LFC at Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax) 7.9 mm can play about 10dB louder at lower frequencies, the mass corner is 224hz.

The mass corner of the K33E (15162) is about 187hz.

Based on your corrected figures, I may try to get by with stricly mass rolloff on the woofer section. IOW, no choke or active Xover, although I like the idea of high pass filtering, which I have done at 37.5 Hz. from about 50. The bass sounds more defined with a lower Xover to my sub.

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The Kappa 15C has only a Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax) 2.4 mm, that might be OK for lower-powered home use. I does have a mass corner of 248hz.

The Kappa Pro 15 LFC at Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax) 7.9 mm can play about 10dB louder at lower frequencies, the mass corner is 224hz.

The mass corner of the K33E (15162) is about 187hz.

Based on your corrected figures, I may try to get by with stricly mass rolloff on the woofer section. IOW, no choke or active Xover, although I like the idea of high pass filtering, which I have done at 37.5 Hz. from about 50. The bass sounds more defined with a lower Xover to my sub.

Sorry guys, my bad. I should be posting this in the Quarter Pie Build section.

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I only use the Kappa Pro 15C... its always dug deeper than a stock K33 in my cornwal boxes.

This is a unbolt and replace UPGRADE! Sell the old units. If you don't have the coin for it... there is no need. But if you want to have deeper and more bass the 15C will provide for this.

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Eminence no longer has the Kappa Pro 15C, even if PE does.

It looks to have been replaced with the Impero 15C which doesn't have as good a spec., Fs is higher and the cost is much higher.

Well then, it looks like you guys need to stock up on 15C's!! You can't steal in slow motion, as the old saying goes. Otherwise, the 15LFC will have to do or maybe a Kappa 15A

I was mistaken, the Kappa 15C is still available. I was looking at the Kappa Pro line before.

I believe that Dana Moore used the Eminence Legend CB15 in some of his designs.

Burce

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