Youthman's First Heritage Speakers...the LaScalas

[Frzninvt]

Also keep in mind when you set the crossover point to 80HZ you still have 12db slope roll off so it drop to 68Hz. Unless you are running a 24db slope which will be a sharper rolloff. I set mine all to 60Hz since they can easily handle it and I want the most impact that I can get from them.

[garyrc]

.

... While Audyssey worked great on my Reference setup, just would not dial in the Heritage setup as it had my Reference setup. Got to thinking Audyssey could not be wrongs, especially since it worked great with my previous 7 channel Reference setup with MultiEQ XT32 on the Denon 4311. The K-horn fronts, the La Scalas rears, and three Belles (center and sides) all bottomed out at -12db. The four Herseys ranged from -3.5 to -6.5 dB. I did dozens of runs over a year pretending I just was not hearing right because it previously treated me so well. I finally in desperation got an SPL meter and everything came to life and was balanced.

An attenuator on each speaker? I am not even sure what an attenuator is or looks like. I would like to know more.

The bottoming out at -12 dB is what screws things up with efficient speakers. The following is based on Audyssey's solution for the problem,

I only know how to use the attenuators in Audyssey set up when you have a separate preamp/processor and separate power amps. The attenuators would go between the pre-pro and the power amp. If you have an all-in-one AVR, you may be able to use a processor loop to put the attenuators in, but some AVRs no longer have those. Sic transient gloria.

In-line attenuators have a female RCA plug on one end, a male RCA plug on the other, and a little 2+" brass or gold plated tube in between. Inside the tube is some circuitry that reduces the level by a certain number of dB. You would want it reduced by 12 dB. They are available for sale online. My audio dealer (an engineer) recommended double checking the number of dB of attenuation (since it can vary a bit with the amplifier circuitry on either side of the attenuator) by putting an SPL meter on a tripod and measuring pink noise with and without the attenuator. I did, and it was almost exactly 12 dB difference, and all of the attenuators measured the same.

You shouldn't keep the attenuators on permanently -- just use them to run Audyssey. You should use them on every channel, and the sub, so each channel is reduced by the same amount. They are cheap. When you are through running Audyssey, your super efficient speakers (Khorn, etc), which are more efficient than Audyssey planned for, will be turned down by the correct amount, rather than stopping the attenuation short (at what would have been -12 dB without the attenuators). My left Khorn got set for -2 dB (equivalent of -14 dB), my right Khorn got set for -2.5 dB (equivalent of -14.5 dB), and my Belle Klipsch center channel got set for - 1.5 dB (equivalent of -13.5 dB). When you take them off, the system will be playing 12 dB louder than Audyssey thinks it is, so Audyssey recommends regarding -12 dB on the Main Volume Control as setting the system for Cinema Reference Level (peaks at a maximum of 105 dB at the main listening position -- microphone position -- with peaks at a max of 115 dB from the subwoofer, just like the filmmakers set and heard the sound). People who don't have super efficient speakers like we do use 0 on the main volume as Reference level. Reference level is still too loud for most people, so most play at a somewhat lower MV setting. I usually use somewhere between - 16 and -18 (which would be somewhere between - 4 and - 6 for people with normal speakers).

Abnormally yours,

Gary

[Heritage_Head]

Just use the shack meter and level everything with that. Set the mains at -5 and then level match everything to that. Reference wont be 0 but thats not a big deal to me.

[wstrickland1]

Just use the shack meter and level everything with that. Set the mains at -5 and then level match everything to that. Reference wont be 0 but thats not a big deal to me.

That's all I've ever done even with XT32 lol

[Youthman]

Just use the shack meter and level everything with that. Set the mains at -5 and then level match everything to that. Reference wont be 0 but thats not a big deal to me.

Can you clarify? Typically when I'm setting levels, I increase the volume to 80db for the front left and then match the rest of the speakers to that level. Not sure what you mean by set the mains at -5.

[Heritage_Head]

Just use the shack meter and level everything with that. Set the mains at -5 and then level match everything to that. Reference wont be 0 but thats not a big deal to me.

Can you clarify? Typically when I'm setting levels, I increase the volume to 80db for the front left and then match the rest of the speakers to that level. Not sure what you mean by set the mains at -5

Set the mains at -5 and see what the are (how many db like 75db). then set the rest of the speakers to 75db with the same settings. The -5 can be what ever you want it to be

[Heritage_Head]

Your way would work also youth.

[Heritage_Head]

Your doing the levels yourself so you wont need any attenuators. I run my auto test. Then i put the shack on a tri pod. Then i match everything to what the mains are at. It really does not matter if you set them to 80 or even 60db. As long as all the speakers are the same at that level it should be good.

[Youthman]

Set the mains at -5 and see what the are (how many db like 75db). then set the rest of the speakers to 75db with the same settings. The -5 can be what ever you want it to be

Gotcha, I thought you meant set the mains to -5 below Reference Level (not even sure what db that is).

[NBPK402]

.

... While Audyssey worked great on my Reference setup, just would not dial in the Heritage setup as it had my Reference setup. Got to thinking Audyssey could not be wrongs, especially since it worked great with my previous 7 channel Reference setup with MultiEQ XT32 on the Denon 4311. The K-horn fronts, the La Scalas rears, and three Belles (center and sides) all bottomed out at -12db. The four Herseys ranged from -3.5 to -6.5 dB. I did dozens of runs over a year pretending I just was not hearing right because it previously treated me so well. I finally in desperation got an SPL meter and everything came to life and was balanced.

An attenuator on each speaker? I am not even sure what an attenuator is or looks like. I would like to know more.

The bottoming out at -12 dB is what screws things up with efficient speakers. The following is based on Audyssey's solution for the problem,

I only know how to use the attenuators in Audyssey set up when you have a separate preamp/processor and separate power amps. The attenuators would go between the pre-pro and the power amp. If you have an all-in-one AVR, you may be able to use a processor loop to put the attenuators in, but some AVRs no longer have those. Sic transient gloria.

In-line attenuators have a female RCA plug on one end, a male RCA plug on the other, and a little 2+" brass or gold plated tube in between. Inside the tube is some circuitry that reduces the level by a certain number of dB. You would want it reduced by 12 dB. They are available for sale online. My audio dealer (an engineer) recommended double checking the number of dB of attenuation (since it can vary a bit with the amplifier circuitry on either side of the attenuator) by putting an SPL meter on a tripod and measuring pink noise with and without the attenuator. I did, and it was almost exactly 12 dB difference, and all of the attenuators measured the same.

You shouldn't keep the attenuators on permanently -- just use them to run Audyssey. You should use them on every channel, and the sub, so each channel is reduced by the same amount. They are cheap. When you are through running Audyssey, your super efficient speakers (Khorn, etc), which are more efficient than Audyssey planned for, will be turned down by the correct amount, rather than stopping the attenuation short (at what would have been -12 dB without the attenuators). My left Khorn got set for -2 dB (equivalent of -14 dB), my right Khorn got set for -2.5 dB (equivalent of -14.5 dB), and my Belle Klipsch center channel got set for - 1.5 dB (equivalent of -13.5 dB). When you take them off, the system will be playing 12 dB louder than Audyssey thinks it is, so Audyssey recommends regarding -12 dB on the Main Volume Control as setting the system for Cinema Reference Level (peaks at a maximum of 105 dB at the main listening position -- microphone position -- with peaks at a max of 115 dB from the subwoofer, just like the filmmakers set and heard the sound). People who don't have super efficient speakers like we do use 0 on the main volume as Reference level. Reference level is still too loud for most people, so most play at a somewhat lower MV setting. I usually use somewhere between - 16 and -18 (which would be somewhere between - 4 and - 6 for people with normal speakers).

Abnormally yours,

Gary

I am not getting why it would make a difference... I let Audyessy set my La Scalas to -12. What difference does it make? With my La Scalas at -12 my reference level is 0... If I put attenuators in it is just changing where my reference level is. Why would I want it to be different, unless your surrounds are more than 12db different in sensitivity.

[Heritage_Head]

I think its because is it really -12 or was it trying to set them even lower and it maxed at -12.

[Boxx]

you guys are like crack dealers

[Youthman]

Boxx, was that too strong of a statement?

[Scrappydue]

I think its because is it really -12 or was it trying to set them even lower and it maxed at -12.

exactly! my new 904's after maxing at-12 are still 7.5 db higher than they should be. so they would be at -19.5 if my receiver would go that low. letting your receiver set in accordance with reference may not be important to some but to my it is very important. i like to know that when i watch at -10 that i am exactly at 10 db below reference volume. period. so attenuators will happen for me eventually.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Scrappydue

[garyrc]

I think its because is it really -12 or was it trying to set them even lower and it maxed at -12.

Yes, that is why!

As far as using a SPL meter is concerned, that's O.K. if the source of the pink noise (or other test signal[s[) GOES THROUGH any EQ in the system (like Audyssey). Most built in test tones in AVRs do not. The correct level for a given speaker (relative to the others) might be at one SPL if the noise passes through the EQ, and another SPL if the noise signal does not (i.e., is generated in a stage later than the EQ). Using a test DISK solves the problem, because anything coming from a player will go through the EQ, providing the EQ was run before the level matching with the SPL.

[Youthman]

So what db is considered "Reference"? I've read different db levels are considered "Reference".

[Youthman]

Online, some were saying 75dB while others were saying 85dB.

I'll go by what THX says here.

[Scrappydue]

105 db with peaks up to 115 with your sub is what i believe reference is. the reason i like to be just right on it is so me and others have the same experience. like youth, when i asked you to play art of flight at reference. that would be with your ez eq set at whatever it sets your levels at(not familiar with hk auto setup) and then the main voume at 0. if yours and mine are calibrated correctly we should have the same experience (SPL wise) for that scene. now this isn't always true as some one with a rf-42 home theater may be able to turn up to 0 but no way they will reach reference volumes. la scala and pro cinema, no problem.

[CECAA850]

I keep reading where you're needing to turn the speakers down. I believe you've posted it twice now. I had the same thing happen to me when I first got my RF-7's. I'd crank it up to a good level and find myself turning it down. It remained that way till I had Dean rework my crossovers. Since then I've had several people tell me that "the speakers don't hurt your ears even when they're so loud you have to shout to the person next to you". To me stock Lascalas are a little hot in the mid range where you're most sensitive under loud conditions. Just my 2 cents.

[Scrappydue]

Online, some were saying 75dB while others were saying 85dB.

I'll go by what THX says here.

85 is spot on as you can read in the article. however each receiver is different in how it attains this. my test tone in my onkyo 805 calibrates each speaker to 75db. i don't know what that specific number, but everyone i have had with audyssey calibrates to that same level. recently when i had that pioneer elite, it calibrated to 85 for everything. so that is what i mean when they all calibrate different.