Youthman's First Heritage Speakers...the LaScalas

[Youthman]

Thx for the document, very interesting indeed. Guess I'm just so used to my mains being able to dig a lot deeper.

[Deang]

I THINK the original paper in oils from the earliest of days up through the 60s are probably the PCB oil types. They then went to Mylar in oil, which is what we are normally used to seeing, and what Youthman has on his. DJK says the original cans are hermetically sealed with glass, which is pretty cool.

Thanks, Dean, for the clarification. I think old caps are pretty cool too and why I kept them after replacing them. They sit on a shallow pan above my shop workbench and are a great conversation piece. Since they were not leaking, just did not want to throw them away, and will dispose of them safely when the time comes.

One question. I have heard when they are 20+ years old (mine were all between 32-38 years old) that they simply lose capacitance over a 20+ year period.

True or myth?

It's true. Capacitance begins to drift with age because of dielectric breakdown. What surprising though is that it often doesn't drift as much as we would expect. The thing that suffers most is the resistive element. The ESR begins to climb, and power which is supposed to go to the drivers is now turned into heat. This is why the speakers get brighter after the capacitors are replaced. Those old capacitors will cause the sound to be a little grungy too.

[Deang]

Thx for the document, very interesting indeed. Guess I'm just so used to my mains being able to dig a lot deeper.

Properly placed, they'll hit 50Hz. The E string on a four string bass guitar is 41Hz. Okay, so you lose a little, but what you get used to and what spoils you are the clean and crisp bass lines and the extremely fast and punchy bass. Once you get these dialed in, you'll find yourself in front of them quite a bit.

Subs are a two edged sword. You get the bottom, but it normally doesn't sound right with the cleanliness and speed of the horn loaded bass. That's why many are moving to the tapped subs (I've even been looking at them). A good option is to keep it simple: give up the bottom, get a decent tube amp, and then listen at low to moderate levels after a long day. You get to a point in life where you're tired of noise, and the last thing you want is a bombastic, ear-bleeding listening session.

[Gnote]

I really miss having Michael around. He is a great guy with a LOT to contribute to this forum

I agree extremely knowledgeable, always willing to pass on his knowledge and provide guidance !

[Deang]

I just got off the phone with him, sealing a deal on some LaScala splits. I'll be picking those up next weekend. Michael is insanely busy these days, he runs sound somewhere for someone almost constantly. I usually spend part of a weekend with him when I go over, but he just told me that he can only give me a few hours on Saturday, which is kind of a bummer.

[Youthman]

That's great to hear that he is doing well. Great guy. Tell him he is missed around the forums.

[Rhetor]

I THINK the original paper in oils from the earliest of days up through the 60s are probably the PCB oil types. They then went to Mylar in oil, which is what we are normally used to seeing, and what Youthman has on his. DJK says the original cans are hermetically sealed with glass, which is pretty cool.

Thanks, Dean, for the clarification. I think old caps are pretty cool too and why I kept them after replacing them. They sit on a shallow pan above my shop workbench and are a great conversation piece. Since they were not leaking, just did not want to throw them away, and will dispose of them safely when the time comes.

One question. I have heard when they are 20+ years old (mine were all between 32-38 years old) that they simply lose capacitance over a 20+ year period.

True or myth?

It's true. Capacitance begins to drift with age because of dielectric breakdown. What surprising though is that it often doesn't drift as much as we would expect. The thing that suffers most is the resistive element. The ESR begins to climb, and power which is supposed to go to the drivers is now turned into heat. This is why the speakers get brighter after the capacitors are replaced. Those old capacitors will cause the sound to be a little grungy too.

Thanks, Dean . . . "a little grungy" is exactly what I was hearing before I changed the 36-year-old caps. Listenable sure, but a little grungy before the cap change, crystal clear after. I appreciate the description to what I was hearing! I would never have known what I was missing before I changed caps, because the '76 La Scalas were not only the first Heritage I ever bought, but the first I ever heard once I plugged them up.

[wuzzzer]

I've always heard guys speak of how the 3-way heritage speakers have better midrange. I've owned Forte II and Chorus II and I thought those were "heritage" but later found out they weren't part of the heritage series. I never felt they blew away my RF-83's in the midrange department. The LaScalas definitely have a better midrange though. That midrange horn is HUGE! The throat on the horn is 2ft deep. It's very smooth and vocals sound amazingly natural.

Klipsch groups the Forte/Chorus/Quartet as their Heritage series.

[beeker]

I've always heard guys speak of how the 3-way heritage speakers have better midrange. I've owned Forte II and Chorus II and I thought those were "heritage" but later found out they weren't part of the heritage series. I never felt they blew away my RF-83's in the midrange department. The LaScalas definitely have a better midrange though. That midrange horn is HUGE! The throat on the horn is 2ft deep. It's very smooth and vocals sound amazingly natural.

Klipsch groups the Forte/Chorus/Quartet as their Heritage series.

Yes sir 100% true according to the official KLIPSCH HERITAGE REFERENCE DATA as of 2013 including the 3 you listed and the second series of the three as well. I can prove this information as can we all if anybody doubts it

[Deang]

Anything PWK had a personal hand in designing and named, are considered "Heritage" - I don't know about the "II" versions though (whether or not he had involvement with them in the design process).

[beeker]

Its all posted with cw'siii'&h3's listed in the shallow depths of the help pages off the klipsch website listed in the KLIPSCH HERITAGE REFERENCE DATA as of 2013. It stops at chorus ii on the page of actual heritage then lists other variations derived from heritage models such as kg etc..

[etc6849]

A second sub isn't just for more output (it really only adds 3dB more and you can do this already by turning up your current sub). It's more to tame room modes, improving frequency response. This made a dramatic difference in my room, but YMMV. In general though, you should get a noticeable improvement with a second sub.

If you have the space to run dual subs and can find another RSW-15 (great sub by the way!), I think it'll help the bass response considerably. No

Yes, I have room for dual RSW-15's and would like to pick another one up down the road but honestly, the single RSW-15 is plenty to provide the low end for the LaScalas. I sold my Dual Velodyne HGS15 (15" with 1250/3000 amp) when I bought the RSW-15 because it sounded as good as having (2) Velodyne HGS15's.

Edited April 19, 2014 by etc6849

[Heritage_Head]

2nd sub adds 6db.But depending on placement its hard to get the full 6 unless you co the subs. But it should give 6 if set up perfect.

Edited April 19, 2014 by reference_head

[Youthman]

A second sub isn't just for more output (it really only adds 3dB more and you can do this already by turning up your current sub). It's more to tame room modes, improving frequency response. This made a dramatic difference in my room, but YMMV. In general though, you should get a noticeable improvement with a second sub.

I agree. That is what I experienced with my Dual Velodyne HGS15's. There was a NOTICEABLY more impact (even if it was only 3db). When I added the 2nd sub, I could then "feel" the bass instead of just hearing it. Maybe that's because it smoothed out the bass response and added more bass in my primary listening position....that I'm not sure.

[garyrc]

Thx for the document, very interesting indeed. Guess I'm just so used to my mains being able to dig a lot deeper.

Properly placed, they'll hit 50Hz. The E string on a four string bass guitar is 41Hz. Okay, so you lose a little, but what you get used to and what spoils you are the clean and crisp bass lines and the extremely fast and punchy bass. Once you get these dialed in, you'll find yourself in front of them quite a bit.

Subs are a two edged sword. You get the bottom, but it normally doesn't sound right with the cleanliness and speed of the horn loaded bass. That's why many are moving to the tapped subs (I've even been looking at them)...

Agreed!

Youthman,

I have a Belle center (Khorn R & L) and a RSW15 sub. If the Belle is highly similar to the La Scala in the bass (as it's reputed to be), the following comments may be of interest:

• My Belle, which is flush mounted in a strong false wall covered with grille fabric, does very well to about 55 Hz, and actually has a little peak at 60 Hz.
• The bass impact from 60 Hz on up is much cleaner, crisper and more exciting than what my RSW15 puts out.
• Of course, the RSW 15 is more substantial below 60 Hz, and goes much lower
• But, subjectively, the RSW 15 is muddier, but welcome in movies. With music, I sometimes turn it off, and the Khorns help fill in down to below 40 (and are still responding at 24, according to REW).

Given all of the above, after I finish fooling around with Audyssey, room treatments, and REW, I may look into a fully horn-loaded sub.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Garyrc

[Cornman]

Heritage - oh yea most of us old disciples are still singing the gospel...

[twistedcrankcammer]

Its all posted with cw'siii'&h3's listed in the shallow depths of the help pages off the klipsch website listed in the KLIPSCH HERITAGE REFERENCE DATA as of 2013. It stops at chorus ii on the page of actual heritage then lists other variations derived from heritage models such as kg etc..

I've always heard guys speak of how the 3-way heritage speakers have better midrange. I've owned Forte II and Chorus II and I thought those were "heritage" but later found out they weren't part of the heritage series. I never felt they blew away my RF-83's in the midrange department. The LaScalas definitely have a better midrange though. That midrange horn is HUGE! The throat on the horn is 2ft deep. It's very smooth and vocals sound amazingly natural.

Klipsch groups the Forte/Chorus/Quartet as their Heritage series.

Yes sir 100% true according to the official KLIPSCH HERITAGE REFERENCE DATA as of 2013 including the 3 you listed and the second series of the three as well. I can prove this information as can we all if anybody doubts it

Lets see about that Wuzzer & Beeker, the Klipsch Corp is now owned by who?? Oh yea, Audovox! Nobody remotely related to PWK has anything to do with running Klipshs web sight. That FACT means the people who listed it that way know less than 95% of the people on this forum and your argument that if it says it on the web site it must be so carries "ZERO" weight!

What makes a "Heritage" model speaker Heritage???? Is it the fact that it was built in Hope while Paul owned the company?? If that is the case, you would have to call all of the KG line Heritage, plus a few other models as well.

"Heritage" models are speakers that were designed by Paul that are responsible for the existence of the company and what it has become to this date. Heritage is where the Klipsch line originates from, and that is NOT Chorus, Forte, & Quartet, no matter what somebody put on Klipschs web page because Paul never designed those models period! End of story!!

Roger

Edited April 20, 2014 by twistedcrankcammer

[beeker]

Its all posted with cw'siii'&h3's listed in the shallow depths of the help pages off the klipsch website listed in the KLIPSCH HERITAGE REFERENCE DATA as of 2013. It stops at chorus ii on the page of actual heritage then lists other variations derived from heritage models such as kg etc..

I've always heard guys speak of how the 3-way heritage speakers have better midrange. I've owned Forte II and Chorus II and I thought those were "heritage" but later found out they weren't part of the heritage series. I never felt they blew away my RF-83's in the midrange department. The LaScalas definitely have a better midrange though. That midrange horn is HUGE! The throat on the horn is 2ft deep. It's very smooth and vocals sound amazingly natural.

Klipsch groups the Forte/Chorus/Quartet as their Heritage series.

Yes sir 100% true according to the official KLIPSCH HERITAGE REFERENCE DATA as of 2013 including the 3 you listed and the second series of the three as well. I can prove this information as can we all if anybody doubts it

Lets see about that Wuzzer & Beeker, the Klipsch Corp is now owned by who?? Oh yea, Audovox! Nobody remotely related to PWK has anything to do with running Klipshs web sight. That FACT means the people who listed it that way know less than 95% of the people on this forum and your argument that if it says it on the web site it must be so carries "ZERO" weight!

What makes a "Heritage" model speaker Heritage???? Is it the fact that it was built in Hope while Paul owned the company?? If that is the case, you would have to call all of the KG line Heritage, plus a few other models as well.

"Heritage" models are speakers that were designed by Paul that are responsible for the existence of the company and what it has become to this date. Heritage is where the Klipsch line originates from, and that is NOT Chorus, Forte, & Quartet, no matter what somebody put on Klipschs web page because Paul never designed those models period! End of story!!

Roger

Lol Im right with you and understand totally. I assure you I own my share of mint heritage no matter where anybody stands although Paul was just exited about the chorus ii being released as i would be to own a pair lol

[Scrappydue]

up to 6db. stacked in the corner i believe is the only way to achieve this. which is pointless to me. opposite sides of the room is where its at.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Scrappydue

[Youthman]

According to THX, where it's at is center of all 4 walls.....but that isn't practical in most applications so I'm with ya, opposite sides on the front wall is where I have mine, corners add too much boundary gain so I prefer them to be off the side walls some.