ClaudeJ1 Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 (edited) I can see the big difference between the 2 drivers you posted, I wish I would have known about those drivers before I purchased a second used set of k-33s. But I now know what to upgrade to . Nothing wrong with a K-33 it's a very good driver designed specifically for the Klipschorn (to extend the low end via resonance) and performs even better in an MWM and my Quarter Pie Horn as long as you are not trying to reach peak performance at 400-500 Hz. , which I'm not, since I cross at 320. The K-33's are easily sold here or on Ebay to get all your money back. So, no problem there.. It actually produces great bass lower down than the others, but sacrifices the midrange area to do so. I recently came across some rare Japanese woofers from a local guy in Indy, when I measured the T/S parameters, I found them to be like a cross between a K-33 and an EVM 15L. It gets me slightly more/lower bass while maintaining the midrange response of the 15C/EVM15L. It's a good compromise, so it will be a further upgrade to my Quarter Pie horns. This has officially made my almost new 15C's available to go into my old FH-1 bins or to sell used here. You could try and use a 15C AND a K-33 in your Jamborees and get the best of both, since they are feeding the same horn. I would mount the K-33 on the bottom and the 15C on top. Edited May 11, 2014 by ClaudeJ1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) The high frequency roll off of the bass bin will be a function of the 1) driver, 2) throat, and 3) geometry of the folding of the bass bin. "Hornresp" does not model # 3. What does the designer of the Jamboree say (he used to be a member here)? Edited May 12, 2014 by PrestonTom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted May 12, 2014 Author Share Posted May 12, 2014 What does the designer of the Jamboree say (he used to be a member here)? I think he said something along the lines up to 600 hz with the right driver. We will see how it responds with these drivers. I think it will be good for testing purpose none the less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Which one is the Jamboree? And there are other inexpensive horns out there if you can't afford the K402. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Which one is the Jamboree? They are referring to the Dana Moore horn design using two 15 inch drivers from several years ago. Here is JWC's build thread. https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/78667-did-a-jubilee-now-its-time-for-a-jamboree/page-1?hl=jamboree Nat Denkin's build thread. https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/124926-building-jamborees-in-the-dining-room/?hl=jamboree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted May 12, 2014 Author Share Posted May 12, 2014 Which one is the Jamboree If your referring to the chart Claude posted both are the Jamboree, the light grey is K-33 and the black is eminence Kappa 15c. And there are other inexpensive horns out there if you can't afford the K402 Are you referring the to QSC horn you have mentioned. http://www.parts-express.com/qsc-pl-000446gp-replacement-waveguide-horn-for-hpr152i--245-625 If not what else do you have in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted May 12, 2014 Author Share Posted May 12, 2014 Fjd, your links aren't working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) Fjd, your links aren't working. That's strange. I just tried them by right clicking and opening in a new tab and they worked. I had to find them again to provide these links as I had them "book marked" in my browser but the old book marks no longer worked with the forum conversion. Edited May 12, 2014 by Fjd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBPK402 Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Work for me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted May 12, 2014 Author Share Posted May 12, 2014 Ya its working now, I don't know what I was doing wrong. Thanks for posting those, that will be something I read before my next build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Which one is the Jamboree? They are referring to the Dana Moore horn design using two 15 inch drivers from several years ago. Here is JWC's build thread. https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/78667-did-a-jubilee-now-its-time-for-a-jamboree/page-1?hl=jamboree Nat Denkin's build thread. https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/124926-building-jamborees-in-the-dining-room/?hl=jamboree Thanks, I couldn't remember if the Jamboree was the dual 15" direct radiating and ported, or that dual 15 horn. I think I recall JC mentioning that he preferred the dual 15" direct radiating over the Jamboree, but I could be mistaken. It's been a long time since those builds... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 And there are other inexpensive horns out there if you can't afford the K402 Are you referring the to QSC horn you have mentioned. http://www.parts-express.com/qsc-pl-000446gp-replacement-waveguide-horn-for-hpr152i--245-625 If not what else do you have in mind. The QSC horn doesn't load below 1kHz (and really drops off a bit earlier than that), so I wouldn't recommend it here. There are a few (Dayton?) horns at Parts-Express (I don't remember the numbers off-hand) and then the Autotech horns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 FWIW, I haven't found anything on the market yet that competes with the Jub LF or the K402 HF...there are several interesting and good builds, but nothing that really nails this mid-bass performance target without just purchasing the much more expensive Klipsch designs. I've been working on a dual 12" bass-horn to cover 80Hz to 1kHz without folding, but I don't think it can be done and fit through my door and achieve the target polar response when integrated with the tweeter (the Jub LF doesn't hit the polars perfect either, but that's another topic). Going to a folded design makes it easy (actually makes it preferred) to have a lower Fc of around 60Hz, but that can easily be augmented to dig a bit lower if desired. However, the folded design gives up HF extension and ultimately gets back to being real close to the Jub LF in performance. In which case, maybe a clone makes a lot more sense since Roy has been at this for a very long time and that design is already very proven. A while ago JC did do a straight tractrix horn that dug a bit lower than I thought it would - which was an interesting design. If I cant find a link to it later this week I'll try to post it if I remember... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 The high frequency roll off of the bass bin will be a function of the 1) driver, 2) throat, and 3) geometry of the folding of the bass bin. "Hornresp" does not model # 3. What does the designer of the Jamboree say (he used to be a member here)? The driver/throat interaction is also a very complex variable that is very difficult to model due to the driver datasheets and the way hornresp deals with the numbers....not saying it can't be done, but it's not a walk in the park at all. I had to calculate some things by hand to make sure I could trust hornresp....and then the simulation results were terrible when originally I thought things looked good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 The high frequency roll off of the bass bin will be a function of the 1) driver, 2) throat, and 3) geometry of the folding of the bass bin. "Hornresp" does not model # 3. What does the designer of the Jamboree say (he used to be a member here)? Mostly it's mass rolloff of the driver. Throat can help the highs without hurting the lows too much, but it's part of the BALANCE of all the other stuff. Then the folding (large radii and fewer folds seem to be the general guide line, but there are exceptions). You are correct with #3 since Hornresp oversimplifies everything and assumes an axis symmetrical horn. However, once you have a model, you can try different drivers, lengths, throats, etc. and you will get a pretty good idea of whats important or impactful RELATIVE to everything else. The true test is listening and measuring in YOUR room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I've been working on a dual 12" bass-horn to cover 80Hz to 1kHz without folding, but I don't think it can be done and fit through my door and achieve the target polar response when integrated with the tweeter (the Jub LF doesn't hit the polars perfect either, but that's another topic). Yes, based on the polar plots I have seen, 500 Hz.is still a compromise and 400 Hz. in the 3-way version sounds better to my ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Are you referring the to QSC horn you have mentioned. http://www.parts-exp...pr152i--245-625 If not what else do you have in mind. This is the one I'm using as a super tweeter over my K-402's. Roy said the K51`0/K69 is way overkill for a tweeter at home, since it was designed to punch through a large theater screen. Besides any 1" throat driver will do a better job above 8 Khz.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) A while ago JC did do a straight tractrix horn that dug a bit lower than I thought it would - which was an interesting design. If I cant find a link to it later this week I'll try to post it if I remember... I think you may be referring to this link. Another I had book marked a while ago and needed to re-find since the forum conversion. Several years ago I had read through every post in each of JC's build threads. Looks like the 'next generation' may be getting ready to do some building. https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/101710-jcs-tractrix-bass-bin/ Edited May 12, 2014 by Fjd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 The high frequency roll off of the bass bin will be a function of the 1) driver, 2) throat, and 3) geometry of the folding of the bass bin. "Hornresp" does not model # 3. What does the designer of the Jamboree say (he used to be a member here)? Mostly it's mass rolloff of the driver. Throat can help the highs without hurting the lows too much, but it's part of the BALANCE of all the other stuff. Then the folding (large radii and fewer folds seem to be the general guide line, but there are exceptions). You are correct with #3 since Hornresp oversimplifies everything and assumes an axis symmetrical horn. However, once you have a model, you can try different drivers, lengths, throats, etc. and you will get a pretty good idea of whats important or impactful RELATIVE to everything else. The true test is listening and measuring in YOUR room. Claude, we ae not in disagreement. My point is that the folding may be the limiting factor on HF response and not the driver's mass roll off. In which case swapping drivers may be of no benefit (at least for HF extension). For instance the HF extension in the Klipschorn and La Scala are determined by the folding geomery and not the driver's mass roll off ( so I am told). IOW, The K-33 in a stright horn goes higher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted May 12, 2014 Author Share Posted May 12, 2014 The QSC horn doesn't load below 1kHz (and really drops off a bit earlier than that), so I wouldn't recommend it here. Thats what worried me, I was wondering why you where recommending it when it wouldn't go low enough. But you're not. I guess as far as upgrading horns goes, I am just going to save and go strait for the K402. Tom, Claude and I are working out a deal for me to try the Kappa 15c's with not much out of my pocket. So we will see how it turns out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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