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Crossover and speaker settings - Help Please!


Dreadneck13

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I just bought two Klipsch F-28 floor speakers. I am having a hard time figuring out the best setup as far as settings and crossover.

1) Set the speakers to small or large ?

2) If set to small what crossover is good to ensure I still get great sound from the speakers and deep bass from the sub?

3) My Sub has a r and L input and a LFE input - currently I have it from the receiver sub out into the subs LFE.

3) Does the sub always receiver a signal even if the front speakers are set to large. Meaning, I thought that the cross over setting just filters out the signals for the speakers it is set for and doesn't actually send the filtered signals to the sub-woofer, the sub-woofer is its own channel and signals will be sent to the sub no matter what the cross over for the speakers are set. By setting a speakers crossover you are just saying cut these frequencies out – not cut them out and send them to the sub instead (Is that right?)

I have:

· Receiver: Sony STR-dn1050

· Front R/L Klipsch f-28 (maybe I need a better model with a separate mid-range driver)

· Center: Mirage OMD-C1

· L/R surround: Mirage Nanosat (I want to get new Klipsch surrounds once I figure this out)

· Subwoofer: Infinity PSW310 10in

Thanks!

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Welcome to the forum!

I just bought two Klipsch F-28 floor speakers. I am having a hard time figuring out the best setup as far as settings and crossover.

1) Set the speakers to small or large ?

2) If set to small what crossover is good to ensure I still get great sound from the speakers and deep bass from the sub?

3) My Sub has a r and L input and a LFE input - currently I have it from the receiver sub out into the subs LFE.

3) Does the sub always receiver a signal even if the front speakers are set to large. Meaning, I thought that the cross over setting just filters out the signals for the speakers it is set for and doesn't actually send the filtered signals to the sub-woofer, the sub-woofer is its own channel and signals will be sent to the sub no matter what the cross over for the speakers are set. By setting a speakers crossover you are just saying cut these frequencies out – not cut them out and send them to the sub instead (Is that right?)

I have:

· Receiver: Sony STR-dn1050

· Front R/L Klipsch f-28 (maybe I need a better model with a separate mid-range driver)

· Center: Mirage OMD-C1

· L/R surround: Mirage Nanosat (I want to get new Klipsch surrounds once I figure this out)

· Subwoofer: Infinity PSW310 10in

Thanks!

I will assume you are setting up a home theater and are mostly TV movies and gaming...

1> Large for sure

2> Those speakers are rated to 35Hz.

3> You have the right connection. Sub out to the lfe in. LFE = Low Frequency Effects

4> If you have a subwoofer designated in your AVR, you will get signal to it when there is a signal to send. If you defined small speakers, you could set your filter to something higher than 35Hz (let's say 50Hz), and then sounds that are designated for those speakers that you told the AVR they couldn't play (under 50Hz) will be diverted to the sub. If you set the mains as large, then you will get signals that were designated as LFE by the movie or game publisher when they recorded it.

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Awesome, thanks for the help. Yes mainly Movies and Games.

I have the KF-28 set to large now but I was reading some post that said set large speakers to small and then use the crossover settings. I didn't think I would need to do that because keeping them at Large I get more sound from the speakers and the Sub will still receive bass via the LFE.

BTW- you have some awesome speakers! The LaScalas.

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Awesome, thanks for the help. Yes mainly Movies and Games.

I have the KF-28 set to large now but I was reading some post that said set large speakers to small and then use the crossover settings. I didn't think I would need to do that because keeping them at Large I get more sound from the speakers and the Sub will still receive bass via the LFE.

BTW- you have some awesome speakers! The LaScalas.

let me tell you why MOST people run them as small. 9 times out of 10 (so not always) your subwoofer will produce better smoother bass at 80hz and below. Only way to tell is to try yourself. Also when you cut at 80 you put less strain on receiver which allows you to play louder with lower distortion. All this coming from a guy with three cinema main speakers with dual 15's in each. I run them small and cut at 70hz cause my sub is much stronger below that. And hey that is what we buy a subwoofer for right?
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Welcome to the forum. If running a HT, Music, and Game, set the speakers to small for full bass management. As stated this will give an extra 4-6 db for the midrange. The subwoofers job in HT is to produce the low bass. Most tower speakers in a room will roll-off and the spec in the manual is not reliable in the home. You are off to a good start! Have fun!

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Awesome, thanks for the help. Yes mainly Movies and Games.

I have the KF-28 set to large now but I was reading some post that said set large speakers to small and then use the crossover settings. I didn't think I would need to do that because keeping them at Large I get more sound from the speakers and the Sub will still receive bass via the LFE.

BTW- you have some awesome speakers! The LaScalas.

let me tell you why MOST people run them as small. 9 times out of 10 (so not always) your subwoofer will produce better smoother bass at 80hz and below.

After much experimentation, I am also in the "run small, and cross over at 80 club." Our most used listening environment is in a med sized living room, with low volume.

There is a legitimate reason for running them "large" and as far as I am concerned, it is totally personal preference. If you run "large" there is a setting now available to you called "double-bass" where both the sub AND the speakers are sent the lowest frequencies by the AVR. Some will like this kind of sound, some will not. I would compare it to running the LOUDNESS button on the old receivers. At higher volumes, I think double-bass is a bit more fuzzy.

My SUBJECTIVE opinion is the double-bass option will give you fuller, more even bass throughout the room, and a more full sound if you listen to ultra-low volume, as I do since my wife HATES anything loud coming from the speakers. She likes to listen to TV at conversational level or below. We can get away with listenable LOW volume due to a 5.1 setup, since the center speaker makes sound very CLEAR for dialog when watching TV.

Have fun experimenting. And make sure to include the wife, but understand that SHE will have the last word. B)

Edited by wvu80
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Awesome, thanks for the help. Yes mainly Movies and Games.

I have the KF-28 set to large now but I was reading some post that said set large speakers to small and then use the crossover settings. I didn't think I would need to do that because keeping them at Large I get more sound from the speakers and the Sub will still receive bass via the LFE.

BTW- you have some awesome speakers! The LaScalas.

let me tell you why MOST people run them as small. 9 times out of 10 (so not always) your subwoofer will produce better smoother bass at 80hz and below. Only way to tell is to try yourself. Also when you cut at 80 you put less strain on receiver which allows you to play louder with lower distortion. All this coming from a guy with three cinema main speakers with dual 15's in each. I run them small and cut at 70hz cause my sub is much stronger below that. And hey that is what we buy a subwoofer for right?

Dreadneck's mains are capable of 35Hz, which is better than my two KPT-684's theater subs. He has two of them. He plays games and watches movies that have plenty of LFE. Unless he has multiple subs, I still think large is best. I think he is in the 1 out of 10.

Also, if you use your AVR`s crossover be sure o turn the crossover knob on sub up all the way.

Agreed

Welcome to the forum. If running a HT, Music, and Game, set the speakers to small for full bass management. As stated this will give an extra 4-6 db for the midrange. The subwoofers job in HT is to produce the low bass. Most tower speakers in a room will roll-off and the spec in the manual is not reliable in the home. You are off to a good start! Have fun!

Agreed for music, since it is not mixed with LFE as games and movies are. Exceptions would be DVD-Audio or SACD's. He is a movies and games guy. Plenty of LFE mixed in on those.

I'm a bit confused about the 4-6db midrange boost. Is this because you are using less of your amps power on the woofers on the mains?

He has a single 10" sub. Specifications, Frequency Response (±3dB):32Hz - 150Hz. His mains are 35Hz, and he has two....

I believe he will experience better results set at large, but only he can tell us which works best.

Awesome, thanks for the help. Yes mainly Movies and Games.

I have the KF-28 set to large now but I was reading some post that said set large speakers to small and then use the crossover settings. I didn't think I would need to do that because keeping them at Large I get more sound from the speakers and the Sub will still receive bass via the LFE.

BTW- you have some awesome speakers! The LaScalas.

let me tell you why MOST people run them as small. 9 times out of 10 (so not always) your subwoofer will produce better smoother bass at 80hz and below.

After much experimentation, I am also in the "run small, and cross over at 80 club." Our most used listening environment is in a med sized living room, with low volume.

There is a legitimate reason for running them "large" and as far as I am concerned, it is totally personal preference. If you run "large" there is a setting now available to you called "double-bass" where both the sub AND the speakers are sent the lowest frequencies by the AVR. Some will like this kind of sound, some will not. I would compare it to running the LOUDNESS button on the old receivers. At higher volumes, I think double-bass is a bit more fuzzy.

My SUBJECTIVE opinion is the double-bass option will give you fuller, more even bass throughout the room, and a more full sound if you listen to ultra-low volume, as I do since my wife HATES anything loud coming from the speakers. She likes to listen to TV at conversational level or below. We can get away with listenable LOW volume due to a 5.1 setup, since the center speaker makes sound very CLEAR for dialog when watching TV.

Have fun experimenting. And make sure to include the wife, but understand that SHE will have the last word. B)

This makes sense. You are basically sending sub-bass to 2 speakers and a sub, which should also combat room modes. The boominess at higher volumes probably has to do with the room, and the fact that you need to work at positioning multiple subs to prevent huge peaks and valleys caused by standing waves.

Edited by mustang guy
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Thanks everyone! I appreciate everyone taking the time to offer up some advice on the topic. Looks like there is no definitive small vs large and it boils down to seeing what sounds best. I am going to try both; first setting at Large and listening to some intense movie sections then I will try small and set the crossovers to the center and rears, starting at 80 (but I think i get a cleaner dialog if I set it around 90 or 100.). I will report what works best for me.

And yes to confirm - this setup is mainly for Movies and games - I'm even thinking about getting an Epson 3d projector down the road!

A couple things from the responses:

I didn't see a double bass option in my receiver (Sony STR-DN 1050 )but I did see something called Dual Mono with 3 options: 1) Mains 2) Mains and Sub 3) Sub - but it sounds like to me that this is for signals recorded in mono, so I don’t think it has anything to do with the bass management.

On the back of my Sub there is a switch for Low Pass Filter with an option or on/off. I imagine if I switch it on then my sub is handling the crossover and if I switch it off I am letting the Receiver handle the crossover (or bass management). There is also a crossover setting knob on the sub and I have that all the way up. So, can I leave the LPF on the sub off, so the receiver handles it, even if I set the mains to large (which then have no crossover for me to set)

My sub:

· Frequency Response(-6dB): 28Hz-150kHz

· Internal Subwoofer Amplifier Power: 400 Watts with proprietary Bass Optimization System

· Crossover Frequency(ies): 50Hz-150Hz; continuously variable.

· Nominal Impedance: 8 Ohms

· Low Frequency Driver: 10" (250mm) CMMD, Dual 10" (250mm) CMMD passive radiators

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Double bass means the mains get a full signal and the sub get the bass below the xo. This results in an overlap of bass at the XO, or muddy, boomy bass. Sub placement will not solve this problem. If his mains extend to 35 Hz which I doubt, if they can handle that region as well as a sub, the XO should be around 15Hz higher, or at least 50 Hz. The benefit of running the speakers small is also increase headroom in the avr. If he is a big gamer, he can try the large and small setting.

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Double bass means the mains get a full signal and the sub get the bass below the xo. This results in an overlap of bass at the XO, or muddy, boomy bass.

Not necessarily. While it would be serendipitous should the position of the mains also be the ideal locations for bass, having multiple bass transducers should help smooth out modal response. Smoother bass response over more of the room is the name of the game, not increased output. Of course the drawbacks of this method remain; more modulation of mid frequencies in the mains, and more demand placed on the AVR (neither of which may be an issue at typical domestic listening levels). Try it both ways, and pay heed to the sub's settings. If you have REW, take a look at what the different methods are giving you. Otherwise throw on your favorite Jaco album and use your ears.

Edited by Ski Bum
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The key factor is getting good bass is location, location, location of the bass module. It is hard to lug around the mains to where they produce the best bass. Geddes and other have shown that most tower speakers are not the I deal choice for getting good bass in the room. Can it work, yes. Is it the best solution, no if you have a subwoofer.

Also from a power management standpoint, Having the sub do the heavy lifting is better.

Most "large" speakers have very high distortion when trying to produce loud LF sounds -- like 10% to 50% ! You are using all their excursion and thus getting very nonlinear (distorted). It is even worse when the main speakers cannot reproduce the low frequencies; it simply causes large excursions that are not heard, or the power is converted into heat in the voice coil. Neither is a good way to spend your power budget.

Again using 1 W to produce 70 dB at 1 kHz as a reference, 80 Hz requires an extra 10 dB, or ten times the power. So, if you cross at 80 Hz (ideal brick-wall filter just for this simple example), your AVR and main speakers need to deal with about 11 W (it is not linear, but say roughly 10 W for the 80 Hz signal to sound as loud as the 1 W signal at 1 kHz and 10 + 1 = 11). Meanwhile your sub is putting out 100 W to produce a 40 Hz tone at the same loudness, sparing your main speakers and AVR from having to deal with 100+ W. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1112470/official-pioneer-mcacc-thread/4170

This is why subwoofers have their own power amps, and why more power is always

I think the OP has a 100 watt avr. Using a sub would give him extra power for the midrange.

Edited by derrickdj1
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  • 1 year later...

Awesome, thanks for the help. Yes mainly Movies and Games.

I have the KF-28 set to large now but I was reading some post that said set large speakers to small and then use the crossover settings. I didn't think I would need to do that because keeping them at Large I get more sound from the speakers and the Sub will still receive bass via the LFE.

BTW- you have some awesome speakers! The LaScalas.

let me tell you why MOST people run them as small. 9 times out of 10 (so not always) your subwoofer will produce better smoother bass at 80hz and below. Only way to tell is to try yourself. Also when you cut at 80 you put less strain on receiver which allows you to play louder with lower distortion. All this coming from a guy with three cinema main speakers with dual 15's in each. I run them small and cut at 70hz cause my sub is much stronger below that. And hey that is what we buy a subwoofer for right?
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Well I've tried large and small and small seems to be much better all around. Deeper stronger bass and louder mids and highs going thru the surround sound. I'm just wondering exactly is the best crossover settings for fronts and surrounds? My sub is a powered pinnacle 10in so is by itself and doesn't have anything to do with the crossover. I can set the crossover anywhere and can hardly tell a difference so just wondering

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Your sub most likely extends into the upper 30 Hz range at the MLP.  A rule of thumb is to set the speaker XO based on the least capable speakers FR.  Most bookshelf speakers extend between 40-60 Hz.  So, if the speaker goes down to 60 Hz the the XO would be 75 Hz or somewhere in that range.  Measurement gear is need to be more accurate.

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OK thanks I agree. The thing is I find that around 120 to 140 sound the best but not sure why. And when I do the acoustical test program it puts it around there automatically anyways. I don't know I'm just learning. I'll keep in touch and for know I'll just experiment. Worse comes to worse all just auto calibrate and leave it alone lol. Thanks

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This post was everything I needed to help understand my current battle with my 5.2 HT. Is it weird that I swap back and forth between the large and small setting for my r-26f's. I usually run them at large when I watch movies/tv at low to mid volume and set to small when I really turn it up.

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Whenever you are using a capable subwoofer your speakers should be set at SMALL.

 

When you use the SMALL setting is when your crossover comes into play and then the crossover should be adjusted accordingly to your speakers capabilities.

 

You want your very lowest frequencies directed to the subwoofer then adjust the crossover to a setting that works well with your speakers the more capable your speakers are at producing low frequency the lower you can set your crossover setting. Experiment with various crossover settings to find what works best for your speaker setup.

 

For most large speakers it is best to set the speakers as SMALL then set the crossover to something between 40hz and 80hz as to what works best with your particular speaker/subwoofer combo. When using a smaller or a satellite speaker you should use a higher crossover setting sometimes as high as 120hz again according to the speakers capabilities.

 

Many people think "My speakers are large so I should use the LARGE setting" this is completely incorrect.

Edited by Rich_Guy
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Whenever you are using a capable subwoofer your speakers should be set at SMALL.

 

When you use the SMALL setting is when your crossover comes into play and then the crossover should be adjusted accordingly to your speakers capabilities.

 

You want your very lowest frequencies directed to the subwoofer then adjust the crossover to a setting that works well with your speakers the more capable your speakers are at producing low frequency the lower you can set your crossover setting. Experiment with various crossover settings to find what works best for your speaker setup.

 

For most large speakers it is best to set the speakers as SMALL then set the crossover to something between 40hz and 80hz as to what works best with your particular speaker/subwoofer combo. When using a smaller or a satellite speaker you should use a higher crossover setting sometimes as high as 120hz again according to the speakers capabilities.

 

Many people think "My speakers are large so I should use the LARGE setting" this is completely incorrect.

Very well said Thanks..

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