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eth2

Herseys/Cornwalls/Fortes

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unless my wife moves out which she will likely do if I bring another speaker home

Problem solved, no?

Shakey

After nearly 40 years, she grows on you. :rolleyes:

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The heritage line is what gives Klipsch its awesome cred, every other speaker company and their dog is making skinny towers (which I despise), glad Klipsch is still making wide baffles with real drivers that don't have the cost of a car.

Edited by Tone_Boss

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While the Cornwalls have more chest thump, the Fortes were far clearer and the soundstage was more defined. I was listening to Neil Young's Harvest and the vocal from the Fortes were breathtaking. With the Fortes the guitar and harmonica were most lifelike and the bass was far deeper (even than the Heresys with a modest sub). After three hours I just can't understand why Klipsch stopped making these. These are truly great speakers!

I agree! I think Klipsch should have reintroduced the Forte II instead of a new, badly-designed Cornwall III. It's an excellent, fault-free Heritage that is not as oversized, overweight, or as unbalanced in horn-vs-direct radiator propagation as the C/W's.

I think the C/W I and II are better for jazz and movies than for classical music, whereas the Forte II seems better balanced in that respect to me. What do you think, eth2?

Ok I'll bite on the "badly-designed Cornwall III" remark as I'd like to understand why you feel this way?

-R

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Ok I'll bite on the "badly-designed Cornwall III" remark as I'd like to understand why you feel this way?

See Post # 19 above.

Edited by LarryC

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Larry,

Can you dumb it down for a yahoo like me who has zero clue about notes or htz.

Are you saying the mid isn't as full sounding to you as the I or II?

R

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Well, dumbing it down should be just my speed, but let's see ... Incidentally, do you have in your mind's ear what a middle "C" sounds like, or the 440-Hz "A" an orchestra tunes to? I could work from that if you wanted. However, I don't think it's primarily a matter of frequency response --

I would say that it's more like the mid-range doesn't sound as large or as full-size with a smaller mid-range horn. Music or sound propagates from the mouth of the horn. and the K-701 broadcasts a sound that's a little too small for a speaker as big and dramatic as the Cornwall. The sound comes across as a little pinched for me. (This is ALL my humble opinion, BTW!) The old K-600 was a much better size for the C/W I and II IMO.

Note that the Forte II crossed at 650 Hz, about the same place as the C/W I and II -- a very nice size of mid horn for that speaker!

Of course, the K-400 and K-500 of the K-horn/La Scala and Belle respectively have much larger mid-horn mouths than the Corns, which would somewhat account for their very large sound, but the real secret of those speakers, IMO, is the seamless extension of the horn effect into the lower middle range and the bass by the bass horns of all three of those! One of the greatest assets IMO of the all-horn loading through bass bin of the entire mid range and bass, with the very large-sized sound where the mid-range is not limited by the smaller K-700 or -600.

Now, all that I've just said is MY OWN OPINION AND CONJECTURE, completely unsupported by any experts I am familiar with. JMHO .... But there's a reason PWK used horn loading as far down as he could, within reason.

Edited by LarryC

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the K701 is an tired old horn that distorts too much if it was any damned good it would be used in the theater and pro lines where by the way measured performance is critical but where with Klipsch they care every bit as much about the sound. The Heresy and the Cornwall are throw backs to maintain the Heritage concept its like saying"see even our old stuff is still good". Don't get me wrong I like Klipsch but it is time that they embraced new technology and designed new and improved loudspeakers. The problem is you the consumer. You say one thing but you and your wallet do another. Klipsch is building exactly what Klipsch is selling to the consumer or rather what the consumer figures they want or will put up with. They tried moving forward with Forte ll and Chorus ll and with the Epic series and they all got squashed. It is sad but true and I don't see squat that any of us can do about it. And by the way the last time I looked I could buy a nice car for what a pair of new Khorns cost or any of the heritage line for that matter. Larry I am with you. Best regards Moray James.

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Rocko81,

This thread from several years ago shows the advantage of having a sense of Hz and notes in figuring out how to solve the last problem in restoring the throat of my bass horn to the modern configuration. I had to have a mind's-ear sense of the crossover point to figure it out. Sorry, it takes a little close reading in places.

The pics are not showing up in my MacBook Pro, but I hope they will in Windows.

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/38719-restoring-the-standard-bass-horn-throat-in-a-62-pair-of-klipschorns/?hl=%2Bthroat+%2Bof+%2B1962

Edited by LarryC

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OT, I just sent Chad a PM about the pics. I hope he can restore them! They're very helpful (IMO).

The narrative I was thinking about was the following ...

So, am I all set?

NO! something was still not right! Violins were shrieky in the upper, E-string range, and response seemed thin below that. The E string, the highest on the violin, sounds at 680 Hz, and the apparent peak was centered above that, most likely too high to be directly affected by bass horn output. But, if the upper part of the bass horn output were depressed, would it not leave higher frequencies standing out as a relative peak? It didnt seem difficult to subjectively assess this: the AK-4 crossover point between bass and mid-range horns is 450 Hz, easily "heard" in the mind's ear as the nearly-identical 440-Hz "A" used in tuning an orchestra, and the frequencies below this would be produced predominately or entirely by the bass horn. It seemed that something was lowering the upper range output of the bass horn.

The only remaining major difference I knew of between my horns and todays, for which the current network and drivers are designed, was the separate woofer mounting board. Perhaps, after removing the blocks had reduced the 400-500 Hz range, the additional thickness of the 13" X 3" passage now reduced it too far. Klipsch staff thought it would increase compression at the throat, but were not sure of the effect. Below is a pic of the mounting board in place, sans woofer, showing the more extended passage combining the mounting board and motorboard throat, compared with not having the mounting board in place as seen in the pic before last:

[pic]

Mark Kauffman of Klipsch advised mounting the woofer directly to the plywood motorboard, using the largest wood screws that would fit through the woofer mounting holes. Carting the woof to the local Ace Hardware, I determined that #14, 1¼" screws would just fit through the basket mounting holes and reach nearly all the way through the plywood. I then used the bolt-holes in the mounting board as a template to locate and pre-drill the eight new holes in the motorboard, using this helpful gizmo:

[pic]

Finally, using the helpful lower mounting board rail to hold the woof up until the first two screws were started, I was able to tightly secure the woofer directly to the motorboard:

[pic]

Astounding success, at last! The whole range of both speakers now sounds just right powerful, very clear bass, full, accurate, even mid-range and highs.

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OT and Rocko, if Chad can't restore the pics, I might be able to find and re-copy them, if you're interested. It'd be some work -- if I can find them and if they can be copied to the forum.

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Chad writes that pics that far back were not migrated to the current software. I don't know if it was a matter of choice or impossible. Let me know If any of you want me to dig them up, and which ones,

Larry

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Eth2;

If you want to bring your forte II to a whole new level of performance order a pair of Titanium tweeter diaphragms from Bob Crites, as well as Titanium diaphragms from Klipsch for the squawkers. Changing out the squawker diaphragms will require an outboard bandpass that Bob can build for you as well.

Best regards,

John

Edited by John Chi-town
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PS..... In doing so you may find yourself putting the rest of your Heritage line up for sale! :rolleyes:

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Changing out the squawker diaphragms will require an outboard bandpass that Bob couan build for you as well.

Sorry, but what does a pass for hearing the band have to do with my Fortes? Seriously, what is a "bandpass?"

Edited by eth2

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A bandpass limits the out put of the squawker driver. Please see detailed description from Bob Crites below:

I can provide a little technical information of using the Klipsch titanium midrange to replace the orignal phenolics. On the trace below, the red is an original K-53 phenolic diaphrgm and the green is the K-53TI titanium midrange diaphragm on the same 700 hz horn. We see slightly higher average output for the titanium than the phenolic. The phenolic output drops like a stone at 6khz where the tweeter takes over. That allows the crossover to be pretty simple since there is no reason to roll off the midrange. But, the titanium diaphragm keeps on going, in fact heading for a peak at around 7.3khz before it drops off. So, if the titanium diaphragm is used in place of the phenolic without a crossover mod, you would have the midrange and tweeter both at full output at the same time around 7khz.

Bob Crites

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Here is one issue IMO: how far down the mid horn goes/went. My understanding is that the C/W I and I think the C/W II crossed from mid to bass at 600 HZ, and had a mid horn to match, the K-600. This to me gave the Corns the clarity and authority for much of the middle range, including the all-important definitional overtones for bass and lower middle-range instruments. Saxes and cellos are going to sound very well defined by that kind of output. Add the powerful bass to that, and you have a fabulous speaker for jazz, movies, and lots of classical music.

The Forte II had an almost identical lower crossover point for its mid-horn: 650 Hz. The same sort of definitional advantages as the Corns, IMO, and apparently a different balance between the deepest bass and midrange.

But, unless things have changed, the C/W III uses the HERESY treble complement, a smaller, 700-Hz horn, crossed over at a (relatively) stratospheric 800 Hz. That's a whole half-octave higher than a 600-Hz horn, in theory at least. 800 Hz is way up at the G that's 1.5 octaves above middle C. Those notes are just the fundamentals of the higher notes of treble instruments, and the overtones and higher) of mid-range instruments at best. IMO, that's why the C/W III doesn't sound very big -- last time I heard one, it was almost like a Heresy with a little bigger bass. I mentioned this theory to the principal designer, but the die was already cast.

Anyway, that's my $0.02.

...mine as well Larry...in comparing Heresy IIIs to Cornwall IIIs I am reminded what a bargain (comparatively) the Heresy III is compared to the Cornwall III...

I have never heard Forte/Forte IIs but have Quartets and Chorus IIs so I should have some idea...bass is much nicer on the extended Heritage speakers but the Heresy III should do very well minus the bass of course...

Bill

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Here is one issue IMO: how far down the mid horn goes/went. My understanding is that the C/W I and I think the C/W II crossed from mid to bass at 600 HZ, and had a mid horn to match, the K-600. This to me gave the Corns the clarity and authority for much of the middle range, including the all-important definitional overtones for bass and lower middle-range instruments. Saxes and cellos are going to sound very well defined by that kind of output. Add the powerful bass to that, and you have a fabulous speaker for jazz, movies, and lots of classical music.

The Forte II had an almost identical lower crossover point for its mid-horn: 650 Hz. The same sort of definitional advantages as the Corns, IMO, and apparently a different balance between the deepest bass and midrange.

But, unless things have changed, the C/W III uses the HERESY treble complement, a smaller, 700-Hz horn, crossed over at a (relatively) stratospheric 800 Hz. That's a whole half-octave higher than a 600-Hz horn, in theory at least. 800 Hz is way up at the G that's 1.5 octaves above middle C. Those notes are just the fundamentals of the higher notes of treble instruments, and the overtones and higher) of mid-range instruments at best. IMO, that's why the C/W III doesn't sound very big -- last time I heard one, it was almost like a Heresy with a little bigger bass. I mentioned this theory to the principal designer, but the die was already cast.

Anyway, that's my $0.02.

...mine as well Larry...in comparing Heresy IIIs to Cornwall IIIs I am reminded what a bargain (comparatively) the Heresy III is compared to the Cornwall III...

I have never heard Forte/Forte IIs but have Quartets and Chorus IIs so I should have some idea...bass is much nicer on the extended Heritage speakers but the Heresy III should do very well minus the bass of course...

Bill

Larry;

I agree with your analysis as well. However lets not forget the advantage of the Tractrix horn that was used for the squawker in the forte II, Chorus II vs. the Cornwalls Exponential. INMHO just as important as the crossover points and horn size you outlined earlier.

It would be interesting to "bastardize" a Cornwall III or any Cornwall for that matter with a Tractrix horn in the squawker and listen to the results.

Best regards,

John

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Or just take it a little at a time. Direct from Crites the titanium diaphragms for your tweeter are a direct switch and just 4 screws to pull the k79 horn then 3 nuts on the back of the tweeter undoes the old phenolic diaphragm then you can place the titanium diaphragm in there for $52 for a pair shipped.

If you are happy though just keep them stock...I have done so much switching and testing and can become very happy with them in stock form. Especially considering you are enjoying them as they are....i'd give it a year or some time...then upgrade the tweeter diaphragm 1st...if you do decide to use/try titanium diaphragm ...

the mid i would send to bob if you havnt done a switch if or when you would decide to switch to the klipsch mid titanium diaphragm...

Sounds like your happy with them though so i'd stay put unless you feel like it try the tweeter 1st

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I've heard all the speakers mentioned here and have owned most. The Forte IIs are the best kept secret. I've had chorus IIs also.

The forte II's are in my bedroom. ....... considered my wife's speakers now.

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