Super Heresy 1 (Baby Cornwalls Mod.)

[ClaudeJ1]

On 6/23/2018 at 3:08 PM, Terry Palmer said:

 

Could have been. I’m not sure where John Allen comes in. I actually talked to him on the phone. I was also talking to Bob Creits about them he said he was looking for a pair. He told me that John Allen is where Klipsch gets most of its horns and drivers for the Heritage systems, now.


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Yes. I remember Gary Gillum telling me they had the tooling for one of the horns, I'm not sure which one. Also the current best production equivalent of the K55

, as sold through Bob Crites, is the Allen driver with the dual phase plug, which, when it was an Atlas design,  PWK refused to pay for about 35 years ago.

[ClaudeJ1]

5 hours ago, Terry Palmer said:

 

Could have been. I’m not sure where John Allen comes in. I actually talked to him on the phone. I was also talking to Bob Creits about them he said he was looking for a pair. He told me that John Allen is where Klipsch gets most of its horns and drivers for the Heritage systems, now.


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Besides, I'm sure that there's very little  NEW "Heritage" stuff being sold since the used market is so prevalent. Even Pro Stuff is available as the best bang for buck vs. the all new 2-way, skinny speakers.

[Terry Palmer]

Yea the driver on the horn has the dual phase plugs.


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[ClaudeJ1]

23 hours ago, Terry Palmer said:

 

Could have been. I’m not sure where John Allen comes in. I actually talked to him on the phone. I was also talking to Bob Creits about them he said he was looking for a pair. He told me that John Allen is where Klipsch gets most of its horns and drivers for the Heritage systems, now.


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Gary Gillum built all the speakers for John Allen. Upon retirement, he probably sold all his tools to John.

[Terry Palmer]

Cool! Was that not a copyright infringement? Because almost identical to the Hersey I’s they do sound good. Not a lot in the low end. I think the specs say 50hz. I’m hoping with the port and insulation they’ll go lower.


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[ClaudeJ1]

On 6/23/2018 at 2:33 PM, Treyphan said:

As some food for thought, make sure there is enough clearance between the magnet of the woofer and the port. I would guess it’s deep eough. But it’s a guess, Claude may know for sure. 

Yes, it's the main reason I put it where I put it. Otherwise the big magnet will partially block the airflow. I'm still amazed at how many ways people want to do it differently, when the original recipe is so simple and straightforward.

[ClaudeJ1]

4 hours ago, Terry Palmer said:

Cool! Was that not a copyright infringement? Because almost identical to the Hersey I’s they do sound good. Not a lot in the low end. I think the specs say 50hz. I’m hoping with the port and insulation they’ll go lower.


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Copyrights are only good for 20 years. However TRADEMARKS, do not expire. PWK told me that Speakerlab could build his Khorn, but they couldn't call it that, which is why they called it a Speakerlab K after he sent them a cease and desist letter back in the 70's. So as long as the speaker you got doesn't say "Heresy" it's not an infringement of any kind.

[Marvel]

22 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Also the current best production equivalent of the K77, as sold through Bob Crites, is the Allen driver with the dual phase plug, which, when it was an Atlas design,  PWK refused to pay for about 35 years ago. 

 

I believe you mean the K55  replced by th AG-55.  The K-77 is the tweeter, but you know that. Just don't want to confuse anyone.

 

Bruce

[Terry Palmer]

Yes you are correct!! I meant the K55. Do you think porting the cabinets would help?




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[ClaudeJ1]

12 hours ago, Marvel said:

 

I believe you mean the K55  replced by th AG-55.  The K-77 is the tweeter, but you know that. Just don't want to confuse anyone.

 

Bruce

You are right. Been looking at too many different K numbers lately. LOL.Thanks for the correction. I think my high school photo was labeled "Most Confused" in the yearbook. LOL. But don't we all thrive on confusion nowadays??

[Marvel]

No harm, it's all good.

 

17 hours ago, Terry Palmer said:

Do you think porting the cabinets would help?

 

I am sure Claude's changes will work. I have HIIs and am quite happy with the bass on them with my low power SET amps. They give me much more bass than I deserve, but the amps have great output transformers and there is a good synergy with the and the speakers .

 

Bruce

[ClaudeJ1]

23 hours ago, Terry Palmer said:

Yes you are correct!! I meant the K55. Do you think porting the cabinets would help?




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Are you seriously asking this question after reading this thread?

[vtpalmer]

19 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Are you seriously asking this question after reading this thread?

 

According to the thread I believe I will be very pleased with the modifications.  But since these weren't exactly Heresy I's I just had to ask.  Thanks for your input and help. 

[Terry Palmer]

My ports from Parts Express came in. 4” x 4”. Looks like I’m going to have to get a little creative as where to place them because their opening needs to be 5”dia.


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[ClaudeJ1]

On 6/22/2018 at 9:11 PM, Terry Palmer said:

Is there any other ideas for the ports? Would it be OK for the port to be in the center in the back. I will need to move the speaker inputs. I don’t have room to put the ports off to the lower corners.


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Put them in the upper corner in the rear, if you can.

 

 

[ClaudeJ1]

On 5/28/2014 at 8:35 PM, ClaudeJ1 said:

So now after 4 years, 1 month, and 2 days, I offer the following updates:  Karlson3 and Wirruna got me thinking about possible variations that are easier and cheaper, that simply make good/bad/different compromises in the results. Only YOU know what you like best so I will give a bit more room to PLAY with different values. In other words, a bigger sandbox that the above modification demands. I've come to terms with people who want more wiggle room. Pragmatic vs. Dogmatic, so here goes:

1) First and foremost,  I modified a Heresy "E" network, to have 4uF capacitors for the midrange and tweeter (double the original 2 uF value), it ended up looking like a Cornwall "B" network EXCEPT with the POLARITIES on the mid/tweets were REVERSED in the modified E (vs. a pure B, which they are not). So if you bought a Cornwall B network, just reverse the polarities if you want.............all 6 db per octave (First Order), but it's your call on the phase response you end up with.

 

As you will see, depending on which woofer you end up using, your ROOM, how far the speakers are IN/OUT of Walls/Corners, your personal taste, etc. etc. you may want to TWEAK your own variables to your TASTE, ok? For the woofer section, the original 2.5 milliHenry Klipsch Iron Core choke worked fine to my ears. Remember, this will control the Midrange Frequency Rolloff as it hands the sound over to the Midrange Horn. My using the original woofer inductor was part convenience/laziness, and it measured/sounded good to ME. But it was for a Klipsch K-42 or Eminence Delta Pro 12A woofer. As other woofer options are presented down below, you have the freedom to try NO INDUCTOR, up to 4 mH to choke off the midrange portion of the woofer. If you choose Second Order Network, similar to a Cornwall B2, you can add a parallel capacitor from 20-60 uF on the woofer, which will yield a 12 db/octave rolloff which will be clearly audible since "the midrange is where we live" according to PWK and others. Improved midrange was my original reason for the woofer change to begin with but ported bass was also a bonus. You can also vary the Capacitor values on the Midrange and Tweeter sections from 1 to 4 uF (micro Farad) to shift the roll UP frequencies on the low end of the horns. Again, the audibility of this may be questionable and only those who measure may SEE a difference from small changes, like 2 uF vs. 2.2 uF, etc. Between messing with these values, port length, polarities, etc. you could be messing with this stuff for a year and never be satisfied. Who am I to limit the Tweakers' Playground to a small sandbox!!

 

2) If your are going to play with all these variables, then you may as well be able to use a Crites Autoformer with fine 1 db steps instead of crude 3 db steps in the Klipsch T2a. WARNING!  This could extend your playtime for another year. LOL.

 

3) Adding another variable to FIXED box volume of a Klipsch Heresy, there's a woofer choice that someone may wish to try. I still think the original K-42 or Eminence Delta Pro 12A is the best (most expensive too) choice for the best MIDRANGE response (high BL product AND low voice coil inductance), the Dayton PA 310-A is an economical substitute at about half of the price. I guess you need to choose whether to keep the profits in the USA or send some to China, which is beyond the scope of this text. I want to point out that this woofer simulated curve in Black is superimposed over the the original K42 in Gray. You can see a slight bass extension, but with less efficiency and a rolloff that begins 300 Hz. sooner. I hope to be working on a Super Heresy 2.0 soon and I may end up trying this woofer. It's possible that it may be used WITHOUT any inductor since it has almost twice the inductance of a K-42 that is partially responsible for the early midrange rolloff. There's another Klipschead from another continent that will be using this woofer. I hope he posts his results and measurements here for all to see and read his impressions of the sound quality. I just want to remind everyone that room SIZE and speaker PLACEMENT, and Listener POSITION will more RADICALLY change the bass response than these simulate curves ever could convey. Always keep that in mind when you do this stuff.

 

I created this addendum to post #10 on page 1 of this thread. In case someone wants to get "right to it" without reading all 14 pages!! Enjoy.

[Wirrunna]

Last week I became the proud owner of a pair of Heresy 1 HBR speakers, serials 840863 & 4. They came fitted with Crites CT125 tweeters and ALK Cornscala Wall Crossovers and a shopping bag containing 2 original tweeters and balancing networks. They are in good condition.
While checking the pricing on a pair of Eminence Delta Pro 12A from the Australian dealers and realizing I was going to pay more for the woofer upgrade than I paid for the speakers I remembered there was an alternate woofer mentioned. A quick read through the thread found on page 6 that karlson3 had posed the question -
   " i wonder how the Dayton PA310-8 sounds in a Super Heresy ? - its got a fair amount  of moving mass but has low qts & goes to ~4K on-axis plus sims nice in a Heresy sized vented box .  I think with appropriate autoformer tap (if a change is needed) and a solid state amp, it might be pretty good. "

 

After ClaudeJ1 calmed down he posted -
"OK, so I woke up this morning and realised that, based on intuition and experience, using the Dayton PA310-8 woofer, not only save you money, but PROBABLY, you can just do a woofer swap with the original K-22, cut a hole in the back, glue in the port, and you PROBABLY won't have to do anything at all to the E network. You will just have better BASS, which is the #1 issue with old Heresy 1's. Talk about "too easy." "

 

Well, a quick search for Dayton PA310-8 brought up a pair for sale in Australia in virtually brand new condition with original packaging that had been too hot for the intended application. They cost me less than half what the Eminence would cost.

So in true computer systems project style here are the the steps and measurements.

 

1. Run Heresy speakers to confirm they work.
Sat them on the floor in front of the KHorns. They worked fine but sounded a bit anemic.
Not as clear as the KHorns, but I have ALK ES networks - see https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/118361-k-horn-crossovers-from-ak-3-to-universal-to-es/

 

2. A pic of the measurement setup, KHorn in the background, Heresy 1 sitting on a lab stool on the centre line of the room in front of a couch (minimize floor reflections), Liberty Instruments MiteyMike in a retort stand feeding a Lib Inst Mic/Probe Preamp and then REW. Sweep tone through NAD  C725BEE receiver.

 

3. Measure Heresy 1 at 1m on tweeter axis.

 

This plot indicated that the mid was set too high and should be brought back a few dB. So, off with the backs and adjust the 3619 autotransformer.

 

4. Measure Heresy 1 to confirm correct adjustment.

 

Better, still maybe 2dB high in the mid.

 

[Wirrunna]

Continuing ...

5. Swap the Dayton PA310-8 woofer in, line with foam and test as a sealed box.

 

6. Mount the port - I used 4" PVC downpipe that a local plumber cut (crudely) into 4" lengths. I also got new backs of 3/4" ply and mounted terminal cups.

 

7. Pic looking from the back of the HBR under measurement (my assistant had to get in the photo) You can see the mic at his eye level, it is a brass tube pointing at the speaker.

 

8. Measurement with both Heresy's ported, raised up on lab stools in front of KHorns.

 

 

Heresys about 15.5 feet apart, mic central 13.5 feet from both speakers.

 

This is a bigger room than the one Claude measured in and the Heresys are not able to get right in the corner, but there is plenty of bass. I played Erykah Badu's Baduizm loud through the Heresys, the bass is there in spades.

[ClaudeJ1]

10 hours ago, Wirrunna said:

bigger room than the one Claude measured in and the Heresys are not able to get right in the corner, but there is plenty of bass. I played Erykah Badu's Baduizm loud through the Heresys, the bass is there in spades.

Smaller room and near corner placement would bring up the bass further. As I look at the last curve, I'm thinking maybe, just maybe, you need to try and short out the Woofer Inductor. The Non-Klipsch crossover you are using was designed for different woofers and not the Dayton woofer, which has almost twice the inductance of a K22 or K42 (or Eminence). Besides, since you are not using a Klipsch Network and I don't know what ADDITIONAL inductance you are dealing with, since I have no schematic. REMEMBER that my original intent was to improve the MIDRANGE response of the woofer section and NOT the bass, which was a bonus.  So, I'm suggesting you try shorting out the inductor with a single pole switch for immediate A/B listening test on one channel, then measure if you hear a difference......just sayin'. When I did the simulation curves, it shows that the rolloff occurs 300 Hz. sooner than with the Eminence driver in the original Super Heresy. I'm not saying this was a bad choice, however the 1.68 mH inductance, coupled with the 52% greater cone Mass of the Dayton clearly shows this effect in the sims. So shorting out the inductor would remove that variable. It's certainly worth a try to see and hear.

[Wirrunna]

Claude,

If I'm going to take the back off a Heresy again, I'll just mount a terminal strip where the crossover sits and run the 6 driver wires out the port (as described earlier in the thread) so the crossover can be investigated easily. That way it will be a simple to short out the inductor in series with the woofer (which is a Solen 0.62mH, 0.16ohm) and A / B measure the result.

 

I also have the original E2 networks, so if you want me to perform some other mods and measurements now is your chance, however I won't get to it for a day or two.