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Super Heresy 1 (Baby Cornwalls Mod.)


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3 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Depends on which K42. I have a stamped version in my KP-250's that measure with a super low Qts. Slightly difference from the old EVM-12L based K42's. Also, the Delta Pro 12a and soon to be installed and measured Eminence Kappalite 3012 HO.

Keep us posted Claude, you've got me curious about the 3012 HO even though I'm getting a kick out of my K42s right now!

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3 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

So did use use Heresy 1's with K55 drivers/E networks modified like my originals, or Heresy 1.5's with K-53's and E-2 networks, modified/cap refreshed, or modified otherwise like Treyphans??

 

These are 1979 vintage, so the plain old E networks, new caps, reversed wiring on the now Cornwall B type network.  I would like to find a set of 1.5's reasonably priced to make another pair.

 

All the drivers were original, K-22, K-55-V push button, and the K-77 tweeter.  The back panel screws were all mismatched, so I bought all new hardware.

 

Another great song if you want to test the bass:  Mystic Rhythms, Rush.

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Here are some crappy cell pics.  I have some angle extrusion that I will be doing all edges with, and pro wraparound corners.  Then the heavy duty cage over the woofer, and they will be complete.  I know they look like some serious beaters, and that's the best look I could hope for with as bad as they were starting off.  I had the thought to make them look like a pair of speakers that have been bouncing around in the back of some band's van, for 40 years of road trips.

 

IMG_1010.jpg


IMG_1011.jpg

 

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 Claude Said "You don't have to do anything for an E-2 on a 1.5 except refresh the capacitors"

 

Good, is new E-2, so nothing. I only found it necessary to take the treble up one tap point to 4 and there is no capacitor change required with that. Mid stayed where it was.

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6 hours ago, ishwash said:

 Claude Said "You don't have to do anything for an E-2 on a 1.5 except refresh the capacitors"

 

Good, is new E-2, so nothing. I only found it necessary to take the treble up one tap point to 4 and there is no capacitor change required with that. Mid stayed where it was.

Well, actually, if you move the tap up to make the tweeter louder, you are also cutting the impedance in half, which means the capacitance should double if you want to keep the same crossover frequency.

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5 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Well, actually, if you move the tap up to make the tweeter louder, you are also cutting the impedance in half, which means the capacitance should double if you want to keep the same crossover frequency.

He said, she said. Crites said nothing needed. Stands to reason what you say tho, Claude. We are talking the cap for the tweeter, right?

 

But if I bring the impedence back up isn't that going to cut the loudness of the tweeter back a little? Chasing my tail sorta?

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6 hours ago, ishwash said:

He said, she said. Crites said nothing needed. Stands to reason what you say tho, Claude. We are talking the cap for the tweeter, right?

 

But if I bring the impedence back up isn't that going to cut the loudness of the tweeter back a little? Chasing my tail sorta?

The way the Klipsch T2A autoformer works is by increasing the impedance at each countdown tap by a factor of 2. IOW, if you have an 8 ohm driver, each successive tap doubles the impedance: #4=16, #3=32, #2=64, #1=128 ohms. In the case of the 16 ohm midrange, K55, it's 32, 64, 128, 256 ohms, respectively. The higher the impedance, the smaller the series capacitor required to block out a given frequency range. Along with that, it gets less loud by 3 decibels (or louder, depending on whether you go up or down from prior setting), but you must change the capacitor values by half or double to maintain the same Xover frequency to the drivers epending of the direction of that 3 db incremental step.

 

Alternatively, if you use Al Klappenberger's (from the late DJK originally) trick/method of adding a 15 ohm "SWAMPING resistor" across the T2a, in parallel, the the attenuation can be done without changing the capacitor values because it "swamps out" the impedance variable that affects the frequency component while allowing the attenuation to more/less loud to occur at nearly constant 8 ohms regardless of setting.

 

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10 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

The way the Klipsch T2A autoformer works is by increasing the impedance at each tap by a factor of 2. IOW, if you have an 8 ohm driver, each successive tap doubles the impedance: #4=16, #3=32, #2=64, #1=128 ohms. In the case of the 16 ohm midrange, K55, it's 32, 64, 128, 256 ohms, respectively. 

 

Alternatively, if you use Al Klappenberger's (from the late DJK originally) trick of adding a 15 ohm "SWAMPING resistor" across the T2a, in parallel, the the attenuation can be done without changing the capacitor values.

Ok, is E-2 so not a T2A, is something else and this is Heresy 1.5 with K53 mid not K55 and CT125 tweeter. 

 

I am gonna let things sit as is and wait a bit. You have got to be a bit weary of all this stuff...and I am not in a big hurry.

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6 hours ago, ishwash said:

Ok, is E-2 so not a T2A, is something else and this is Heresy 1.5 with K53 mid not K55 and CT125 tweeter. 

 

I am gonna let things sit as is and wait a bit. You have got to be a bit weary of all this stuff...and I am not in a big hurry.

 

 

@ishwash the E2 network absolutely has the T2A autoformer. I just re-checked the Schematic, Incase I was remembering wrong from mine. It has it.

 

Also, please take @ClaudeJ1‘s advice at face. He WONT steer you wrong. He has incredible knowledge and talent with all electronics, Speakers especially. He knows what he is talking about. As a perfectionist myself, it’s what drew me to want to meet and work with him. It’s been quite the rewarding experience. I’m quite good with audio stuff, if I do say so myself. So I’m a pretty good judge of abilities, @ClaudeJ1’s are second to none. 

He doesn’t put stuff up if it isn’t right. You should really just follow his recipe. If not, nothing you do is really relevant to this thread. 

You’re trying to re-invent the wheel here. There is a SOLID, tested mod. Not sure why you keep trying to do it differently. No offense, but it’s just confusing to people who may wanna use the tried and true methods. 

 

 

The ONLY differences  between a Klipsch E and E2 Crossover network is the Inductor is 2.5mh vs 4mh, and the Woofer leg gets a 33uf cap in the E2. Otherwise they are identical. Just for anyone who may read this thread, so they’re not confused. 

 

If its a Heresy 1, Jump the taps 1 spot for the tweeter and mid, double the caps from 2 to 4uf on the mid and tweeter. Reverse the polarity of the mid. Screw a Delta Pro12a in, and out the port in with some acoustic foam lining the cab, and away you go.

 

if it’s a 1.5 LEAVE THE X-OVER as is (replacing old caps with nice new Poly caps of the SAME value), swap the mid polarity, drop a Delta Pro 12a in.  Line the cab with acoustic foam, put the port in and boom! Done.

 

For either version, the Tweeter upgrade is mucho recommended, but not totally necessary. Or just add it later as funds open up.

 

THATS IT. We’ve built this bridge, or Claude has, I should say. No reason to try other things, when something works well. There’s not much more to squeeze out of the Heresy. My SH’s compete with almost anything. 

 

I’ve had them against B&W’s costing 5 times the price, SH won.

against Vandersteen 2c’s....SH by a mile.

 

My wonderful Bozak 302a’s with Tobin Mods. SH’s edge those out too.

 

Cornwall 1’s with Crites x-over upgrade, SH won.

 

i could go on and on. No, the SH isn’t the best speaker ever, but it does what it does really damn good. Hangs with speakers WAY more $. Has that WONDERUL Klipsch sound we all love, just improved upon. 

 

Ive tried them with 10 different amps, they sound good on all of them and a plethora of music styles. Oh and it’s not a “these are MINE so they’re better, the other gear I mentioned they beat out, are also mine. Ok, I think you get my point.

 

i don’t meant to sound rude, but just do the SH mod already. You have what’s needed. Just do it, sit back and enjoy. Ya know? 

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On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 2:40 PM, ClaudeJ1 said:

So did use use Heresy 1's with K55 drivers/E networks modified like my originals, or Heresy 1.5's with K-53's and E-2 networks, modified/cap refreshed, or modified otherwise like Treyphans??

 

Treyphan and Claude, my new Crites E-2's have 3654 autotransformers. Maybe they are the same as T2A, I don't know.

 

Repeating what I have already said: It is a Heresy 1 with K53 mids, which I had on hand  (because I ran out of K55's), it has had the Delta Pro 12A's and the CT125's in it for weeks, waiting for me to figure out what I was going to do. Then you guys decided to do the SH on the 1.5, and that told me what I needed to do, since with the K53 in mine, mine are a 1.5 configuration, needing only E-2 crossovers. I quickly ordered a pair of E-2's from Crites, hooked them up as they are supposed to be and listened to them comparing the sound to my Heresy 1's in an A+B situation. I had already done 3 pair of H1's sometime before, and they were done exactly as Claude recommended and are great, so I had plenty of great H1's to compare the 1.5 configuration against. I was unhappy with the initial comparison with the H1's and since my ears told me that the deficiency was in the highs, I moved the treble only up one tap point, tested it and was rewarded with sound that was essentially the same as the Heresy 1 that I was comparing it to. I did not change the K53 no. 2 tap point.

 

Then I see Claude's post saying I need to adjust the capacitance up. I contacted Crites and he said no, Claude says yes...I tend to go with Claude on it because he has not steered us wrong. I want to do it but to which 2 microfarad capacitor on the E-2 board do I need to add 2 more microfarad? That is all I need to know. I am listening to them and am quite happy with them, right now, and I think you and Claude would be happy as well.

 

I am assuming the 3654 is the same as a T2A, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it is not, and that is all that makes me wonder just a tad, okay? I couldn't be happier about how my 1.5's are sounding.

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1 hour ago, ishwash said:

 

Treyphan and Claude, my new Crites E-2's have 3654 autotransformers. Maybe they are the same as T2A, I don't know.

 

Repeating what I have already said: It is a Heresy 1 with K53 mids, which I had on hand  (because I ran out of K55's), it has had the Delta Pro 12A's and the CT125's in it for weeks, waiting for me to figure out what I was going to do. Then you guys decided to do the SH on the 1.5, and that told me what I needed to do, since with the K53 in mine, mine are a 1.5 configuration, needing only E-2 crossovers. I quickly ordered a pair of E-2's from Crites, hooked them up as they are supposed to be and listened to them comparing the sound to my Heresy 1's in an A+B situation. I had already done 3 pair of H1's sometime before, and they were done exactly as Claude recommended and are great, so I had plenty of great H1's to compare the 1.5 configuration against. I was unhappy with the initial comparison with the H1's and since my ears told me that the deficiency was in the highs, I moved the treble only up one tap point, tested it and was rewarded with sound that was essentially the same as the Heresy 1 that I was comparing it to. I did not change the K53 no. 2 tap point.

 

Then I see Claude's post saying I need to adjust the capacitance up. I contacted Crites and he said no, Claude says yes...I tend to go with Claude on it because he has not steered us wrong. I want to do it but to which 2 microfarad capacitor on the E-2 board do I need to add 2 more microfarad? That is all I need to know. I am listening to them and am quite happy with them, right now, and I think you and Claude would be happy as well.

 

I am assuming the 3654 is the same as a T2A, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it is not, and that is all that makes me wonder just a tad, okay? I couldn't be happier about how my 1.5's are sounding.

 

 

Ok, I guess I’d missed that you were using a 3654, however, it doesn’t matter. For this purpose it’s the “same” as a T2A, as the Taps are 3db increments.

While the materials and construction are better than a T2A, the adjustments will remain the same.

You would add the 2mic cap on whichever speaker you jumped up a tap. This will retain factory x-over specs while making the respective driver 3db louder.

 

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3 hours ago, ishwash said:

That is all I need to know. I am listening to them and am quite happy with them, right now, and I think you and Claude would be happy as well.

It doesn't matter if Treyphan or myself are happy. It only matters if YOU are happy, which appears to be the case. Thanks for the more detailed update. That being said, I never worked on a Crites network so I can't say for sure what you have with any kind of certainty. I can only do that with things I have measure and listened to, otherwise, it's an educated guess, at best, and at worst, just another opinion. If Bob said no, and you're happy, then trust Bob, since it's HIS network, not Klipsch. Let me go back to my original comment to Treyphan: "Different is not the same."

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7 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

It doesn't matter if Treyphan or myself are happy. It only matters if YOU are happy, which appears to be the case. Thanks for the more detailed update. That being said, I never worked on a Crites network so I can't say for sure what you have with any kind of certainty. I can only do that with things I have measure and listened to, otherwise, it's an educated guess, at best, and at worst, just another opinion. If Bob said no, and you're happy, then trust Bob, since it's HIS network, not Klipsch. Let me go back to my original comment to Treyphan: "Different is not the same."

 

I think both of you are correct. You in the strict sense of having the overall impedance being right, and Bob in the sense that the ears can't hear it anyway. Sort of like being greatly concerned about the polarity for a tweeter when it's really not distinguishable to the ear because the frequencies the tweeter delivers are so high that incorrect phasing is not noticeable, like it is with the woofer and maybe the squawker. As in "the amp knows but the ears don't".

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13 hours ago, ishwash said:

 

I think both of you are correct. You in the strict sense of having the overall impedance being right, and Bob in the sense that the ears can't hear it anyway. Sort of like being greatly concerned about the polarity for a tweeter when it's really not distinguishable to the ear because the frequencies the tweeter delivers are so high that incorrect phasing is not noticeable, like it is with the woofer and maybe the squawker. As in "the amp knows but the ears don't".

According to Dr. Earl Geddes, an Audio Engineering Society superstar/math genius (he wrote a book about audio transducers), who happens to live about 30 minutes from me, everything above 10 Khz doesn't matter much to our perception of sound. I can't hear past 12 Khz. anyhow. Besides, you can get away with lots of inaccuracies up there when your Xover only uses ONE capacitor for only a 6db per octave slope and an autoformer that further knocks down the tweeter amplitude by 6 db within a hard to hear passband!!

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from the above mentioned K42 thread

@ClaudeJ1  "Will be testing more components this weekend, including the woofer. So you are LITERALLY ahead of the published curve here, since I'm in the tweeter testing mode and don't forget, Super Cornwalls in the project queue."

 

Perusing the forums recently I kept seeing the B&C DE120 with the more tight Eliptrac HF horn mentioned positively compared to some of the other tweeters. This one is the old model tweet from that guy. The 110 is the current one.

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5 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

This one is the old model tweet from that guy. The 110 is the current one.

B&C is not helping matters here. You go to their website and the DE120 is in the legacy section and not listed as a current offering. You can still buy as many as you want from various places so I assume they are still producing. What they have told Bob Crites is that as long as there is a demand they will keep producing them. Personally I think they will in time drop the 120 just as they indicate by removing it from current offerings. It is why I made my clamp plate to fit both and yes they are a different two bolt pattern. Odly enough PE still offers the DE120 but does not have the new DE110.

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@Dave A

Yes I agree with you on that.

That site states the the DE110 will soon replace the DE120.

With everything I have read on the www:rolleyes: nothing stated that the 110 is equivalent, better or worse! Just superlative statements about the 120.

Thinking that model might be in consideration with the SH v2 testing.

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