Super Heresy 1 (Baby Cornwalls Mod.)

[JohnJ]

Nice @Treyphan those don't look old at all. The aluminum horn mouth kind of glows a little.

 

Mine get here today finally, they got split up in PA and I asked them to hold the first locally so they could both get here at the same time.

First stop will be exactly where my Heresy IIs last were, on the receiver that ran them the most. 

[Treyphan]

4 hours ago, DizRotus said:

Sorry I couldn’t join you. Still hope to get a chance to get together with you, Claude and my two pairs of SH and sundry tweeter options.

 

That aluminum tweeter lens sure looks great.  Glad it sounds as good as it looks.

 

No worries man, we had a plan and I had to bail. It’s on me. We will get together. Your gonna be so happy with the tweets! I’m excited for you!!!

 

tbh, I’d been cheating on klipsch with another vintage speaker brand, from a guy named “Rudy”. I’m a transient response freak! It’s what makes it seem real imho.

These other speakers are also quite good in that department.

 

Well that debate is over. SH all the way, the others are relegated to basement system. These SH are sounding stellar. The ability to translate that gutterall sound of an acoustic guitar string being plucked, the way the notes decay and the overall depth now show me the Mids are performing at a very high level.

 

Allison Krause was just in the room with me....well it sounded like that. Lol I wish she was, but that’s another topic!

 

 

the air and space between cymbals(I’m looking at you @ClaudeJ1) and the highest piano is gorgeous. Detailed and dynamic.

the drums are just as good and vocals now Pop. I’m really a happy guy. It had been a bit stressful working through these to ****get them to MY liking, in MY room, which isn’t the best honestly, who’s is?****

 

I want to stress that at no point did these sound bad. I’m incredibly anal and picky about my sound. Like most on a forum like this. 

 

Also integrating with a complete vintage tube system(my first) took some getting used to. These mods are a no brainer. You can get a great quality set of Heresy used for under $500 if you’re near any metro area, then pop for ALL the upgrades and still be ahead of a new “stock” pair of Heresy. Not to Knock those, they’re great as-is.....just not Super! 

 

Which these certainly are.

 

 

oh and the tweeter lens’s are the coolest damn thing. I’m sorry, I know it’s about the sound....but aesthetically the Heresy is a timeless price of audio art...and the lens gives it the class it deserves.

 

@Dave A has quite a nice product here and they are worth every penny! Glad I ponied up for them. Great work man! Kudos to the fine craftsmanship! 

 

being involved in auto manufacturing and engineering my whole life. I know quality parts, if nothing else.

 

these tweeter lens’s are machined to aerospace quality. Incredible fit. Perfect in fact. You may need to wiggle a tiny bit. Otherwise they drop in perfect.

 

watch out for the lazy Klipsch worker that didn’t fully drive the staples that hold the top motorboard support. It was sticking out about a mm. Which blocked the tweeter housing from fitting. Scared me til I figured it out. Just FYI. They fit and fit perfect! Major props on those machining skills!

[Treyphan]

5 hours ago, JohnJ said:

Nice @Treyphan those don't look old at all. The aluminum horn mouth kind of glows a little.

 

Mine get here today finally, they got split up in PA and I asked them to hold the first locally so they could both get here at the same time.

First stop will be exactly where my Heresy IIs last were, on the receiver that ran them the most. 

Awesome!! You’ll be pleased, that I promise. 

 

Cant wait for your feedback, if you can rip yourself away from listening.

 

I also hooked mine up to an 9 watt per channel set tube amp, they rocked hard with that. Didn’t measure, but some serious db’s.

 

gonna try em with some 35 watt amps Claude let me borrow, and my Denon AVR990. See what they sound like with Audyssey.

 

but they’ll remain with the McIntosh Tubes as their main home. That big McIntosh sound with its “magic midrange” to quote Steve Hoffman, sound oh so creamy smooth with startling detail. Match made in heaven. 

 

However, any decent amp will make these rock! Gotta love high efficiency!

 

have fun!

[JohnJ]

Only got one of them. It sounds nice and clean, but can't set it up correctly for using that big port correctly untill I take down the speakers on brackets that are blocking that flow. Will do that whenever I get the other one here safe and sound.

[ClaudeJ1]

14 hours ago, Treyphan said:

@Dave A has quite a nice product here and they are worth every penny! Glad I ponied up for them. Great work man! Kudos to the fine craftsmanship!

Yep, for all the Klipscheads who like to look at curves. In measuring Treyphan's speakers yesterday, we discovered a midrange wired out of polarity. Once we determined that the original wiring of an E2 network with new Poly Capacitors gave the best curve, we then put in Dave A's gorgeous tweeter (now replaced by version 2.0,  as you will see later) with the B&C DE-120 Super Tweeter Driver (like in my original Super Heresys, from 4 years ago, now owned by JimJimbo). So fresh from the bench, so to speak, I present the curve with 1/3 octave smoothing for greater clarity. The differences in the midrange is one speaker is the Left channel (K77) vs. Right Channel Super Heresy in the exact same spot for both measurements, so the midranges are a tiny bit different also, but it could be we were off placement by 1/2 an inch or so (not a big deal).

 

The BLUE curve is with a 35+ year old K77 tweeter, the RED curve is with DaveA's v1.0 super tweeter). These have the ceramic (mud) magnet and not the older Alnico. DaveA's tweeter have NeoDymium magnets, which are stronger. The K77's start dropping off at 7.6 Khz. while the DaveA's B&C driver/Horn combo are almost ruler flat to 20 Khz!!

 

Please note that this mod was done on a Heresy 1.5,  from 1983 or so, with a Klipsch built driver/plastic horn combo and NOT the older K55 driver with metal horn like my original one. There are a few things that make this mod WAY EASIER than my original. Since having a slightly "tipped curve" in accordance with many sound measuring experts, it's better to have, roughly +3 db at the bass end and -3 db at the treble end for the most natural sound. This Klipsch built midrange is about 1 1/2 db brighter than the K55/metal horn, so there is ZERO modification to be done to the Crossover, except replacement of older capacitors with current Poly Film ones. So basically order 2  new woofers, two bass ports, 2 new tweeters, cut a hole for the port, and you are done. This is way easier than my originals that required soldering on the T2A. If yo think the bass below 150 Hz. is too much, just move the speakers further from the rear and side walls. That's it!!

 

Basically, Treyphan and I managed to kill several birds with one stone with this mod, and he's super stoked about the new tweeter. 

 

I'm working on a Super Heresy 2.0, based on Pre-1980's Heresy 1's, like the originals with slightly better performance, and, hopefully greater ease of modding. Stay tuned for future developments on this and Super Cornwalls!

 

In the meantime, all Heresy 1.5 owners can rejoice at having a much easier mod, drop in new drivers, cut a hole, and listen to a brand new speaker for your troubles and cash!!

 

[ishwash]

So, unmodified E2 with new caps, CT 120 tweeter (since it uses the B&C D&E 120 Super Tweeter Driver), Delta Pro 12A woofer, K53 mid, and cabinet ported and stuffed. Is that about the size of it then for one Heresy 1.5?

 

Thanks, Claude and Treyphan.

[Frzninvt]

Good to know about the 1.5 mid as I plan to use the top end internals from mine to rebuild a pair of HIP's.  The K-55M also runs about 1.5db hotter than the K-55V variants.

[ClaudeJ1]

6 minutes ago, ishwash said:

So, unmodified E2 with new caps, CT 120 tweeter (since it uses the B&C D&E 120 Super Tweeter Driver), Delta Pro 12A woofer, K53 mid, and cabinet ported and stuffed. Is that about the size of it then for one Heresy 1.5?

 

Thanks, Claude and Treyphan.

That sums it up. You can get different horn lenses with that particular driver. A CT 120 from Bob Crites, an MDF based one from Al Klappenberger, or, my current favorite a Convex Oval from DaveA, all with different dispersion characteristics in the curves. In addition,  I'm also working on 2 new tweeter drivers, which will yield 9 potential one combinations, but only a few will be declared winners...........oh, and also a much lighter woofer, by about 12 lbs, with a neo magnet. that allows for central port location in the rear.

[ClaudeJ1]

2 minutes ago, Frzninvt said:

Good to know about the 1.5 mid as I plan to use the top end internals from mine to rebuild a pair of HIP's.  The K-55M also runs about 1.5db hotter than the K-55V variants.

I suspected as much since Jim Hunter told me he had to design new crossovers for the Heritage line back in 1985. Long live data!

[DizRotus]

Now I’m especially sad I wasn’t able to join you and @Treyphan.  My DIY scratch-built “Super” cabinets with KP-201 tweeters (Crites’ titanium) and mids, and Delta Pro 12A woofers could benefit from testing and comparison.  My HIP with K77s, K55s and EV woofers are begging to be properly “Supered.”  Both have temporary leads out the ports to permit network changes quickly and externally.  I’ve experimented with Crites’ CT120 and APT50 tweeters on top of the cabinets, as advocated by Bruce, @Marvel  Too many variables to get a real handle on the situation without testing.

[JohnJ]

Both Super Heresy are here now. Thank you @jimjimbo

90+ & 70% humidity, I'm taking an ac break from the yardwork. Can't do it when I want to this year, have to do it when it's not raining & lightning blowing up trees like in that one Band of Brothers episode! Last night's electrical storm was LOUD!

 

In corners towards the outside wall, one on the floor other up almost two feet on an end table 18' apart. Ports are closer to the outside wall. Angled to meet 12' out. Took the bass, mid, treble controls out of the circuit variable loudness off. Not ideal but gives me an idea. Yes the mid and high are pronounced, you expect that when you've had Heresy IIs for decades, these *I agree with the terminology that they're hot. But also, they are on a Yamaha "Natural Sound" receiver. Some Tchaikovsky on the tv, No Doubt "Just a Girl" & Metallica "Nothing Else ..." on the radio dropping the variable loud to about 11:00 warmed the sound some without taking out the detail. Bass is different as from a sealed Heresy, they are not set up for that yet, and that is what these Supers are all about. 

With the Heresy IIs for years I just dropped the mid and treble controls one notch and left it like that. If I can get the bass dialed in like I want by getting those speakers off the walls behind them then adjusting the Supers until everything clicks I'll leave these running flat!

 

*Please note that here the speakers are too far out maybe and was the first listen before utilizing the characteristics that make these what they are... Super!

[ClaudeJ1]

7 hours ago, DizRotus said:

Now I’m especially sad I wasn’t able to join you and @Treyphan.  My DIY scratch-built “Super” cabinets with KP-201 tweeters (Crites’ titanium) and mids, and Delta Pro 12A woofers could benefit from testing and comparison.  My HIP with K77s, K55s and EV woofers are begging to be properly “Supered.”  Both have temporary leads out the ports to permit network changes quickly and externally.  I’ve experimented with Crites’ CT120 and APT50 tweeters on top of the cabinets, as advocated by Bruce, @Marvel  Too many variables to get a real handle on the situation without testing.

You will get another invite soon.

[Treyphan]

5 hours ago, JohnJ said:

Both Super Heresy are here now. Thank you @jimjimbo

90+ & 70% humidity, I'm taking an ac break from the yardwork. Can't do it when I want to this year, have to do it when it's not raining & lightning blowing up trees like in that one Band of Brothers episode! Last night's electrical storm was LOUD!

 

In corners towards the outside wall, one on the floor other up almost two feet on an end table 18' apart. Ports are closer to the outside wall. Angled to meet 12' out. Took the bass, mid, treble controls out of the circuit variable loudness off. Not ideal but gives me an idea. Yes the mid and high are pronounced, you expect that when you've had Heresy IIs for decades, these I agree with the terminology that they're hot. But also, they are on a Yamaha "Natural Sound" receiver. Some Tchaikovsky on the tv, No Doubt "Just a Girl" & Metallica "Nothing Else ..." on the radio dropping the variable loud to about 11:00 warmed the sound some without taking out the detail. Bass is different as from a sealed Heresy, they are not set up for that yet, and that is what these Supers are all about. 

With the Heresy IIs for years I just dropped the mid and treble controls one notch and left it like that. If I can get the bass dialed in like I want by getting those speakers off the walls behind them then adjusting the Supers until everything clicks I'll leave these running flat!

 

So great to hear youre happy!! Crazy how "different is different" to qoute my good buddy @ClaudeJ1, again. Because mine are not "hot" at all. With all tone controls "by-passed" and out of circuit, running flat. They are so perfectly balanced its funny. The bass is easily controlled by bringing them in or out a bit. Mine are at the present time positioned on the floor, on their risers only. They are about 8 inches from the back wall, and 8 in from the side wall. Toed in at about, oh idk....20-25 degrees. Maybe a bit more. Im about 11 feet back, and theyre about 12 ft apart. 

 

This positioning gives me "Super" bass. Punchy and Deep. I can pull it out a bit and lower it on bass heavy recordings. Hey, its better than using tone controls and mucking up my signal path! lol

 

The off axis performance of these tweeters is insane!

 

I think if you play around a bit with positioning youll get em where you want! Good luck! Thats the fun part. 

12 hours ago, DizRotus said:

Now I’m especially sad I wasn’t able to join you and @Treyphan.  My DIY scratch-built “Super” cabinets with KP-201 tweeters (Crites’ titanium) and mids, and Delta Pro 12A woofers could benefit from testing and comparison.  My HIP with K77s, K55s and EV woofers are begging to be properly “Supered.”  Both have temporary leads out the ports to permit network changes quickly and externally.  I’ve experimented with Crites’ CT120 and APT50 tweeters on top of the cabinets, as advocated by Bruce, @Marvel  Too many variables to get a real handle on the situation without testing.

 

Again @DizRotus Im really sorry and bummed I screwed that up...... family man...ya gotta love it when they drop that card last minute. Thats for sure.

 

Hopefully we can all plan something soon again. Really looking forward to meetin you!

[ishwash]

23 hours ago, ishwash said:

So, unmodified E2 with new caps, CT 120 tweeter (since it uses the B&C D&E 120 Super Tweeter Driver), Delta Pro 12A woofer, K53 mid, and cabinet ported and stuffed. Is that about the size of it then for one Heresy 1.5?

 

Thanks, Claude and Treyphan.

 

Wait a sec, the E-2 was modified because you guys removed the 33 microfarad capacitor, right?

[Treyphan]

1 hour ago, ishwash said:

 

Wait a sec, the E-2 was modified because you guys removed the 33 microfarad capacitor, right?

No Sir, the 33uf cap is in. It was tried both ways, and the response was better WITH it.

Each crossover configuration we tried was tested with and without it. 

 

Both original 33uf caps were replaced with new PolyFilm caps.

[Treyphan]

For clarifies sake, I’m going to explain the exact config of my Super Heresy 1.5’s. IMHO, if you have 1.5’s this is what should be done. 

Move tried virtually every possible config. This sounds best, both via measurements and my ear holes.

 

ok.

 

Your parts list will be as follows:

 

4 x’s 2uf Poly Film Caps. (I used Dayton 5%. I’ve used more expensive in the past, and see no reason anymore. The Daytona are great and sound NO different to me than audyns, solens, etc. I’m not cheap either, if it’s worth it I’ll spend it in a second. Put the money elsewhere. Imo)

 

2 x’s 33uf PolyFilm 5% Dayton Caps

 

2 4 inch ports

 

2 packs acoustic eggcrate foam from Amazon. You’ll only need 1 and 1/2. So you’ll have some extra for other projects!

 

2 Emince Delta Pro 12a woofers

 

2 B&C DE120 super tweeters 

 

2 new tweeter horn lenses. My choice are the ones I have pictured from@Dave A

 

****In the near future it may be better to use the new neodymium Magnet woofer @cluadej1 has his eye on.

 

i also recommend cutting a new back panel from thicker Baltic birch ply. I used 3/4in. Painted black.

 

this does a few things. First, saves the original backs and serial number labels.

It also strengthens the cabinet. But you don’t have too. FYI, a 2 x 4 piece of Baltic birch is like $18 at the Depot! You’ll have a bit to spare even.

 

also, match the polarity of the Mids to the Tweets.

 

Then it’s as easy as, cut the hole for the port, install it, transfer over the speaker terminals(I upgraded them)

 

Solder in the new caps, it’s an even swap. NO CHANGES, just refresh with modern caps. An improvement was heard just doing that, with no changes.

 

Bolt your nice new Woofer in. Using 8 bolts, not 4. The Delta is like 20lbs heavier. 

 

Solder and Mount the tweeter.

 

listen to music and enjoy!

 

It can easily be done in an afternoon with this recipe all laid out.

 

Dont forget to mount the port in a corner, as it will interfere with the woofer magnet in the middle. It will basically block the port. 

 

Placement is up to each persons room limitations and choice.

 

However after extensive real room testing. On the floor on original angled risers gives the fullest, smoothest sound. As @ClaudeJ1 has said, Bass is easily adjusted by moving the speakers in or out from the corners a bit. 

 

Well, hope this clears it up. Let me know if I can help with anything.

[ClaudeJ1]

1 hour ago, Treyphan said:

However after extensive real room testing. On the floor on original angled risers gives the fullest, smoothest sound. As @ClaudeJ1 has said, Bass is easily adjusted by moving the speakers in or out from the corners a bit. 

 

Well, hope this clears it up. Let me know if I can help with anything.

Thanks for posting your step by step recipe. However, I can't take credit for the floor positioning, since Paul W. Klipsch was always a proponent of putting woofers near the floor for Pi loading of the bass. In fact he was totally opposed to putting speaker on skinny legs, like was done in the 1950's and had measurements to prove it. A minor point I know, but I like to give credit where credit is due. Also, this is why Klipsch includes angled risers with each new pair of Heresy III's. Thanks for posting.

[ClaudeJ1]

Just a thought. Since so many words have been dedicated to the BASS performance of this modification, it's the high output, high BL product Woofer that tilts the response towards the midrange that adds to the "magic" of the Super Heresy by improfing the TRANSIENT response in the frequencies between 150-700 Hz. that really shines. Having a very strong, heavy magnet with a light cone, increases the signal tracing capability of the MIDRANGE frequencies, as noted by the prose of Treyphan about the sound of guitars and female voice.

The DeltaPro 12A has this feature, as does the replacement Neo magnet woofer I have selected for the Super Heresy 2.0. But I won't have "the reveal" until I have curves from the actual mod to prove it, like the original one I did. Please not that further improvement will be subtle so it should not stop you from following the original recipe for an H 1 or Treyphan's for the H 1.5. 

 

No matter which Klipsch speaker you have, old, new, modified, or straight from the factory, they ALL need a subwoofer to do the heavy lifting below about 40-60 Hz.(80 Hz. in the case of the LaSCalas and sealed Heresys) and I have owned and tested them all over 40 years, including the all the big horns, even those that did not require corners to work.

[JohnJ]

I put an asterick in my previous post denoting what is not actually good information.

The one that is off the ground because it has to be behind the sofa is now centered 17" from the corner with an empty almost equilateral space behind it. The one on the floor has a scalene shaped void behind it and it's 19" from it's corner. The Polks and brackets are out of the way and I got to listen a little more. 

 

The midbase is more noticable now. I've got K55Vs in these and not sure about them yet.  I've got the one off the floor almost matching the tonal quality of the other with the space behind it like it is.

Bass is more formidable now of course with the ports more able to do their thing. The wooden walls in this room (1/2" pine - late 50s) are way better for the sound when speakers are cornered in it than any sheetrock or sheetrock, stone facade corner where I've lived. The sensitivity compared to my old H2s is at least 3db or doubled greater as you know!

Not finished in any way with placement for these 40 year old beauties, just like Fortes you've got to adjust the position to and fro until it makes the sound you want!

These have a sound like a more large speaker than the Heresy IIs I had before.

[ClaudeJ1]

On 8/8/2018 at 8:58 AM, Treyphan said:

****In the near future it may be better to use the new neodymium Magnet woofer @cluadej1 has his eye on.

So I've decided to let the cat out of the bag, so to speak. The Eminence woofer with the Neo Magnet is the KappaLite 3012 HO, which weighs 9.2 pounds less than the 16.3 lb. Delta Pro 12a at only 7.1 pounds. This not only save almost 10 lbs of weight, but the smaller magnet give us about 1 extra liter of internal volume to extend the bass a teeny bit lower. It also has a higher frequency cutoff point about 100 Hz. higher, which from a midrange point of view, should give us a teeny bit more female vocals, saxophone, and guitar definition out of the woofer before crossing into the midrange horn. It has a 6.2 mm Xmax vs. 4.6 for the Delta Pro, so you may be able to drive it a little harder at parties, depending on how much alcohol is consumed at the time. LOL. Also, the smaller magnet may allow for mounting the port dead center,  which is yet to be determined (no real sonic benefit, though, other than symmetry).

 

I have yet to modify my own Walnut Heresy 1's from 1979 (recently acquired for the purpose) into Super Heresy 2.0's, but this is the woofer I'll be using. Of course I will verify with measurement after I do the mod, but the simulation curves look almost identical. So you can go out and buy this slightly more expensive woofer to do your mod, if you like. Your call.