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ClaudeJ1

Super Heresy 1 (Baby Cornwalls Mod.)

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19 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Minimizing the path differences between the mid and woofer is way more important than any diffractions issues, perceived or real. The Super Heresy is within the bounds of the 1/4 wave rule for phase coherence from a physical alignment perspective, so I don't mess with it.

Not sure what you said there, but believe you may be saying fixing fit problems in the transition area of the K55 to the K700 by altering the K700 could lead to a violation of the 1/4 wave rule and therefore would not be possible to do?

 

Being an engineer (although a bit old and decrepit...smile) and understanding somewhat the differences between laminar and turbulent flow makes this fit area look shabby. Know we are talking sound here and not fluid flow, but I can imagine this mismatch at exit of driver and entrance to the horn not to be good for the ears.

 

Well, need to get this old fart ready for church...later...

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7 hours ago, ishwash said:

Not sure what you said there, but believe you may be saying fixing fit problems in the transition area of the K55 to the K700 by altering the K700 could lead to a violation of the 1/4 wave rule and therefore would not be possible to do?

What I'm saying is it's ALREADY inside the 1/4 wave distance, so the trouble you have to go through to line them up closer together is not worth it. Diminishing returns.

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9 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

What I'm saying is it's ALREADY inside the 1/4 wave distance, so the trouble you have to go through to line them up closer together is not worth it. Diminishing returns.

 

Diminishing returns...probably...but it still bothers the crap out of me. Prob more of those pairs than any other populate Klipsch speakers. Should have been done right at the outset. Somebody needs to make a new one that's better. Cannot bring myself to screw an a55g into it. 

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13 hours ago, ishwash said:

 

Diminishing returns...probably...but it still bothers the crap out of me. Prob more of those pairs than any other populate Klipsch speakers. Should have been done right at the outset. Somebody needs to make a new one that's better. Cannot bring myself to screw an a55g into it. 

The Heresy was done right to begin with. I suspect the reason that they didn't eventually port the original design is that, for example, my Super Heresy mod was too expensive to do in production, and was never considered because it would compete with the Cornwall. Makes perfect sense to me and there's nothing wrong with the horn and woofer mounting methods to begin with. Much ado about nothing/barking up the wrong tree, etc. is at play here.

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2 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

The Heresy was done right to begin with. I suspect the reason that they didn't eventually port the original design is that, for example, my Super Heresy mod was too expensive to do in production, and was never considered because it would compete with the Cornwall. Makes perfect sense to me and there's nothing wrong with the horn and woofer mounting methods to begin with. Much ado about nothing/barking up the wrong tree, etc. is at play here.

 

Agreed.

 

They did port the original Heresy, it's known as HIP.  Since HIP is a "Professional" model, it was not competing with Cornwall.

 

I still plan to port my HIPs in the rear panels and use foam plugs to block the front slot ports, or the rear round ports, or both, to experiment.  The ability to have the networks external permits further experimentation.  They have K-77s, 55s and EV woofers.  I have CT120s and APT 50s (CT125s w/o the T35 lookalike lens) to compare to the K-77s.  

 

Now, If I could just steal the time to coordinate our schedules, we could attack the many variables, as well as some IPAs.

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3 hours ago, DizRotus said:

They did port the original Heresy, it's known as HIP.  Since HIP is a "Professional" model, it was not competing with Cornwall.

Of course, and they pumped up the midrange and tweeter to Khorn/LaScala level to make it as loud as possible above 150 Hz., but very few exist as compared to the "home Heresy" so I don't mention it, since it would increase the confusion factor of my post. Besides, the post was strictly about  horn to woofer physical alignment and not about driver/xover/port mods per se.

 

As to the schedule thing, you need to give me some options sooner than later, since I'll be putting away my measuring rig shortly and moving on to other projects.

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@ClaudeJ1  I must, first off, say "Thank you" for the incredible mod, and all the work you put into this project.  So, here it is:  Thank You!

 

I appreciate you sharing this work with the Klipsch forum,  and for the benefit of anyone on the 'Net.   I just completed my first Super, and in side by side testing against the stock Heresy, this thing is awesome.  I don't have anything in the way of hardware to do "real world" curves, all I have is my aging, tinnitus filled ears.  With that being said, the mids and bass are outstanding with this mod.  The difference is night and day.

 

I'm listening to some Heart, Jethro Tull, Eagles, Foreigner, Van Morrison, Fleetwood Mac, etc.  The sound out of this speaker is crisp, clear, and the bass / midbass gains with the Eminence Deltra Pro 12A are fantastic.  I didn't mess with the stock tweeter, because I would not be able to tell any difference there with the hearing issues.  I know it produces sound, so that's good.  I will mess around with placement, seeing if I can tune it just right. 

 

For something bass heavy, I played "Juke Box Hero" and it sounded out of this world.  Comparable to the Cornwalls I have heard in the past, maybe a bit better (Probably because these are MINE!) 

 

Anyway, for anyone thinking about undertaking this project, I would say that it is well worth the effort and expense.  You will not be disappointed.

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3 minutes ago, Oicu812 said:

The sound out of this speaker is crisp, clear, and the bass / midbass gains with the Eminence Deltra Pro 12A is fantastic.

A configuration with the K42 is darn good as well......

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On ‎8‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 8:07 PM, ishwash said:

Ran out of K55's after doing three Super Heresy 1's. Have a fourth pair of Heresy 1 boxes, a pair of K53's and a pair of Eminence Delta Pro 12A's installed in the 4th set of boxes. Began paying attention to Super Heresy 1.5 portion of this thread because it fits my situation. I also have a set of E-2 crossovers on the way. I don't want to spend any more on this, and I am sure your 120 tweeters are great but in my boxes they would be hidden behind grills.

 

I also have a pair of CT125 tweeters. When the E-2's get here, I will try it first without changing E-2 tap points, but I anticipate that the CT125's will need to be increased by 3db just as was recommended for Super Heresy 1 mods, but I do not anticipate having to make the K53 louder since it is already considered to be hotter than K55's. I guess I was passing this through you two and anticipating that I might hear "different is not the same". I know this won't be the same as yours Treyphan, but I think it will be pretty darn good.

 

Ok, E-2 came in today. Installed it in the 1.5 config Heresy and compared it against Super Heresy 1. Both this 1.5 and the 1.0 have new CT125's and Delta Pro 12's and the diaphragms were renewed in the K53's and the K55's. New Crites E-2 in the 1.5 config and used E converted to B crossover in SH1 and tap points on SH1 are as per Claude. Listened A & B, with left channel only energized. Highs were substandard compared to SH1. Then:

 

Boosted tweeter one tap point (went to 4 from 3 on the E-2 crossover autotransformer). Put back together and that did it. Hard to tell the difference between the two now...will take listening time to determine which sounds the better. That is the best my ears can do. Perhaps Claude 's instruments could improve it further.

 

Thanks Claude, Treyphan, JimJimbo, heck everyone who had a hand in both the 1.0 and the 1.5 Claude Super Heresy upgrade thread.

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1 hour ago, Oicu812 said:

@ClaudeJ1  I must, first off, say "Thank you" for the incredible mod, and all the work you put into this project.  So, here it is:  Thank You!

 

I appreciate you sharing this work with the Klipsch forum,  and for the benefit of anyone on the 'Net.   I just completed my first Super, and in side by side testing against the stock Heresy, this thing is awesome.  I don't have anything in the way of hardware to do "real world" curves, all I have is my aging, tinnitus filled ears.  With that being said, the mids and bass are outstanding with this mod.  The difference is night and day.

 

I'm listening to some Heart, Jethro Tull, Eagles, Foreigner, Van Morrison, Fleetwood Mac, etc.  The sound out of this speaker is crisp, clear, and the bass / midbass gains with the Eminence Deltra Pro 12A are fantastic.  I didn't mess with the stock tweeter, because I would not be able to tell any difference there with the hearing issues.  I know it produces sound, so that's good.  I will mess around with placement, seeing if I can tune it just right. 

 

For something bass heavy, I played "Juke Box Hero" and it sounded out of this world.  Comparable to the Cornwalls I have heard in the past, maybe a bit better (Probably because these are MINE!) 

 

Anyway, for anyone thinking about undertaking this project, I would say that it is well worth the effort and expense.  You will not be disappointed.

@Oicu812, glad to hear your another happy usernof @ClaudeJ1‘s SH converts. Aren’t they great???!!!

What tweeter did you use??

 

i had a set of Cornwall ones I restored for a customer at the same time I did my SH’s(even before the tweeters and rock star lens’). I like the Heresy just as much, I’d done the Crites crossover mods to to the Cornwall 1’s and reveneered and restored, strengthened the cabinets. They were greats but for the bigger size and price tag of a Cornwall, I’ll take a SH any day.

Though I am interested in a Modded Cornwall.

 

we have similar music tastes, I love me some classic rock And good 60’s/70’s singer/songwriter stuff. Also a junkie of everything from bluegrass to jazz to classical.

 

Jazz with these is killer, Stan Getz hangs out in my living room every night if anyone ever wants to come see...err, hear him!

 

well, enjoy!

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I have really been enjoying my my Super Heresys. To me they sound as good, maybe better than my Forte’s and could be because my Forte’s are in too small of a room. The Super Heresys seem much more balanced in sound.


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1 minute ago, Treyphan said:

@Oicu812, glad to hear your another happy usernof @ClaudeJ1‘s SH converts. Aren’t they great???!!!

What tweeter did you use??

 

i had a set of Cornwall ones I restored for a customer at the same time. I like the Heresy just as much, I’d done the Crites crossover mods to to the Cornwall 1’s and reveneered and restored, strengthened the cabinets. They were greats but for the bigger size and price tag of anCornwall, I’ll take a SH any day.

Though I am interested in a Modded Cornwall.

 

we have similar music tastes, I love me some classic rock And good 60’s/70’s singer/songwriter stuff. Also a junkie if everything from bluegrass to jazz to classical.

 

Jazz in these is killer, Stan Get hangs out in my living room every night if anyone ever wants to come see...err, hear him!

 

well, enjoy!

 

Thanks!  I didn't do anything with the tweeters, because I wouldn't get any benefit from upgrading them.  I have high pitched tinnitus, with many different discordant notes in either ear, covering a lot of the high end.  All from bending down to put air in a motorcycle tire that exploded next to my head, back in the late '80's.

 

The cabinets I picked up were horrible, but the drivers all worked.  One side of this particular speaker had an entire corner de-laminated, and it was missing a third of the veneer on one side.  I have gone with body filler, re-laminated the corner, filled in all of the chips and missing veneer pieces on every edge.  I decided to make these black textured,  and it looks decent for such a beater.

 

I was just doing some Blackmore's Night, and the sound is a little awe inspiring.  Stevie Ray Vaughn sounds great, too.

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11 hours ago, Oicu812 said:

 

Thanks!  I didn't do anything with the tweeters, because I wouldn't get any benefit from upgrading them.  I have high pitched tinnitus, with many different discordant notes in either ear, covering a lot of the high end.  All from bending down to put air in a motorcycle tire that exploded next to my head, back in the late '80's.

 

The cabinets I picked up were horrible, but the drivers all worked.  One side of this particular speaker had an entire corner de-laminated, and it was missing a third of the veneer on one side.  I have gone with body filler, re-laminated the corner, filled in all of the chips and missing veneer pieces on every edge.  I decided to make these black textured,  and it looks decent for such a beater.

 

I was just doing some Blackmore's Night, and the sound is a little awe inspiring.  Stevie Ray Vaughn sounds great, too.

 

 

I hear ya on the tweeters, no pun intended. Honestly, I ran mine for about 2 months prior to replacing the tweets. While it was the “weak” spot of the mod, imo, I’m only 38. While I’ve been to hundreds of live concerts and shows, I guess my hearing isn’t so bad as I thought. 

I’m also incredibly anal, but they sound great with just the woofer and x-over mods! Well enjoy!

Oh and Stevie is one of my faves and get LOTS of rotation time in my system. Live at Montreaux is one of my favorite albums ever.

 

Regarding the Veneer and Cabs, I don’t blame ya. It’s about the sound, not the look. And reveneering caninets(correctly) is both time consuming and requires specialized tools and skill set, or paying someone a lot. I’m surprised the speakers people pay me to reveneer sometimes, or even recap. It’s more than they’re worth sometimes, I tell them, but they want it anyway. Nostalgia is a strong drug! I’m addicted myself. Lol Thus the circa early sixties setup I run. 

I long for a time I didn’t live through, sipping cognac in my smoking jacket and listening to good jazz through Mac tubes and Klipsch Heritage. Match made in heaven!

 

 

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@Treyphan I did have a Homer moment during the rebuild.  I had just finished cutting the port, cementing the tube in place, and finished the last bit of egg crate.  I buttoned it up, and plugged it into my amp.  It sounded very flat.  Not good.  I was shaking my head, and wondering where I went wrong.  I opened the back and rechecked my connections at the crossover.

 

Sure enough, I had forgotten to run the squawker and tweeter negative to positive.  I had simply wired it straight, according to the connections shown on the side of the crossover.

 

Swapped the wires around quickly, buttoned it up again, and PRESTO!  Needless to say, I felt like a bit of an idiot.  [Homer] DOH! [/Homer]

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16 hours ago, jimjimbo said:

A configuration with the K42 is darn good as well......

Depends on which K42. I have a stamped version in my KP-250's that measure with a super low Qts. Slightly difference from the old EVM-12L based K42's. Also, the Delta Pro 12a and soon to be installed and measured Eminence Kappalite 3012 HO.

 

Fear not, boys and girls, the port and insulation mod to the cabinet can handle ALL of them, give or take a few percent in the driver specifications, which is pretty good "tolerance" for any audio component, since it's less than 1 db, no matter how you shake it (pun intended) for your ears or measure it with instruments.

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16 hours ago, Oicu812 said:

@ClaudeJ1  I must, first off, say "Thank you" for the incredible mod, and all the work you put into this project.  So, here it is:  Thank You!

You are very welcome. The term "unanticipated popularity and success" comes to mind. Glad to see so many people agree with my original astonishment about this mod. I'm working on Super Heresy v 2.0 as we speak, but it probably won't be as large of an impact as the original, except for weight loss and nuance of tweeter dispersion (improved?). Either way, I think it will deserve it's own thread to avoid further confusion, or, perhaps, it should remain here?? What do you all think?

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Just now, ClaudeJ1 said:

You are very welcome. The term "unanticipated popularity and success" comes to mind. Glad to see so many people agree with my original astonishment about this mod. I'm working on Super Heresy v 2.0 as we speak, but it probably won't be as large of an impact as the original, except for weight loss and nuance of tweeter dispersion (improved?). Either way, I think it will deserve it's own thread to avoid further confusion, or, perhaps, it should remain here?? What do you all think?

 

I think it should be a brand new, shiny thread to avoid confusion and mixed signals within this thread.

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18 hours ago, ishwash said:

Ok, E-2 came in today. Installed it in the 1.5 config Heresy and compared it against Super Heresy 1. Both this 1.5 and the 1.0 have new CT125's and Delta Pro 12's and the diaphragms were renewed in the K53's and the K55's. New Crites E-2 in the 1.5 config and used E converted to B crossover in SH1 and tap points on SH1 are as per Claude. Listened A & B, with left channel only energized. Highs were substandard compared to SH1. Then:

 

Boosted tweeter one tap point (went to 4 from 3 on the E-2 crossover autotransformer). Put back together and that did it. Hard to tell the difference between the two now...will take listening time to determine which sounds the better. That is the best my ears can do. Perhaps Claude 's instruments could improve it further.

 

Thanks Claude, Treyphan, JimJimbo, heck everyone who had a hand in both the 1.0 and the 1.5 Claude Super Heresy upgrade thread.

I noted the Crites CT-125's have lower output when I installed them in a LaScala rebuild, so I had to dial down the midrange to compensate using Bob's excellent Autoformer with the 1 db increments.  More than likely, B&C DE-120/DaveA Elliptical lens has a higher output (never measure the two together), so didn't need the Autoformer boost on Treyphan's 1.5 mod. Good you got it going to your ears and tasted buds even without instruments. Other than Jim Jimbo, you're the only one I know of who has built more than one pair, so your stereo should be twice as good as everyone with just one pair. LOL. I make no apologies for my earlier joke about Quadrophonic! 

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51 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Other than Jim Jimbo, you're the only one I know of who has built more than one pair, so your stereo should be twice as good as everyone with just one pair. LOL. I make no apologies for my earlier joke about Quadrophonic! 

 

Well, I am so a 50's kid and us 50's kids think we have to treat all our kids and grandkids equally when I buy the farm. That's the reason I did so many of them. Golly though, during the switching back and forth between sets of speakers in above test, when I would mess up and have both speakers performing at once it would sound so good that it would immediately make me forget what I was doing, and I also make no apologies for pointing this out again and again...grin...poor JimJimbo, though, I think he must have kept only the one pair, so unless he builds another set, he is cursed forever to just listen to one pair off his amp, poor fellow. LOL, he ain't never responded favorably to me since I messed up and called you a grouch....teehee...

 

Don't worry bout the quad remark, I thought it dead on.

 

Now crap, @ClaudeJ1 or @Treyphan, I am supposed to reverse the leads on the tweeter and mid for the 1.5's? Don't tell me I have to pull the backs off again, have worn the threads smooth already! Why the heck do I have to do that?

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You don't have to do anything for an E-2 on a 1.5 except refresh the capacitors................unless, you use a CT-125 and want to resolder to higher output tap and double the capacitance. The leads are already reversed on an E-2 so you should just go Black to Black and Red to Red, unless Treyphan says otherwise since he owns the 1.5's with E-2's. I'm strictly an E network guy from the mid to late 70's on my modifiable H1's, so I can't verify with absolute certainty for myself or for you.

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