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Super Heresy 1 (Baby Cornwalls Mod.)


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25 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Don't change the E network. Just put them in the Super Heresy as is. You may prefer it because your Air Core choke on the woofer may gobble up some of the power. 

Curious how that would work, for reference it’s a 14awg air core and a quick check with the fluke showed slightly lower DCR on it than the original. With inductance the same wouldn’t thermal losses from resistance be the only avenue for loss? 

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31 minutes ago, zeagan said:

Curious how that would work, for reference it’s a 14awg air core and a quick check with the fluke showed slightly lower DCR on it than the original. With inductance the same wouldn’t thermal losses from resistance be the only avenue for loss? 

Correct. Since I did not measure what you just told me, I stated it as a "possible" reason. The main reason is that another Super Heresy Modifier did that very thing and really liked the results, keeping it all E (not a B equivalent), so since we are talking about a 3 db difference, you can always change them incrementally, also if you feel the need.

 

In his case, I wanted him to do it progressively and allowing for his taste in Bass in his ROOM since he had very restrictive placements. Plus is simplifies the life of people who use the original Klipsch E network, since they have to do less soldering and can keep the original Capacitor values, like you have, do a woofer swap and add a port.

 

Try it like that First before you change it. Like Fido did, you may not have to change it any further. Either way it will be a sound improvement for sure. But its about how much MORE output you want the Horns to do relative to the woofer.

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14 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Correct. Since I did not measure what you just told me, I stated it as a "possible" reason. The main reason is that another Super Heresy Modifier did that very thing and really liked the results, keeping it all E (not a B equivalent), so since we are talking about a 3 db difference, you can always change them incrementally, also if you feel the need.

 

In his case, I wanted him to do it progressively and allowing for his taste in Bass in his ROOM since he had very restrictive placements. Plus is simplifies the life of people who use the original Klipsch E network, since they have to do less soldering and can keep the original Capacitor values, like you have, do a woofer swap and add a port.

 

Try it like that First before you change it. Like Fido did, you may not have to change it any further. Either way it will be a sound improvement for sure. But its about how much MORE output you want the Horns to do relative to the woofer.

Excellent! That’s what I was thinking, the plan here is to take things very incremental as there’s no huge rush as a casual summer project and making them look nice enough to be allowed in my girlfriend’s house is priority 1 right now. 
 

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15 hours ago, zeagan said:

Excellent! That’s what I was thinking, the plan here is to take things very incremental as there’s no huge rush as a casual summer project and making them look nice enough to be allowed in my girlfriend’s house is priority 1 right now. 
 

Following Claude’s recipe except the capacitor mods made my super heresies sound fantastic very close to my Forte 1s. I sold them to a Klipsch lover who is temporarily using them in his large warehouse before his basement remodel is done and he says he loves them as is in that space. Said they are the best Heresy speakers he has ever heard, by far.

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  • 2 weeks later...

First, I'd like to applaud Claude (no pun intended there) for his work on the ported Heresy mod. Back in 2012 I asked about a ported Heresy but did not get very far at the time with the project. Life and you know, life has a habit of getting in the way. Now, I have a bit more time on my hands and can tinker more (hopefully). 

 

My ported Heresy (circa 1979 version) is using a Celestion TF1225 woofer. The factory specs on the TF1225 are almost identical to the Eminence Delta Pro12A. Measured specs (with a DATS V2) are similar to factory specs, but more favorable for the small Heresy enclosure. I tuned the Heresy enclosure to 55Hz with 4" PVC, 3 5/8" long. Speaker modeling with WinISD shows that F3 is 56.4Hz. That corresponds with a box volume of 1.715 cubic feet. I have also modified my Type E crossover to ALK Universal Type for the Heresy. Stock K77 & K55V are still being used. 

No room measurements yet, but the TF1225 sounds as good or better than the K22 woofer. Even though the F3 is 56.4 Hz, room gain is making it sound like there is a bit more down below. 

 

Similar to the ported LaScala mod (which I have also done), the ported Heresy can benefit from a high-pass active filter with low damping (or a high Q, depends on how you want to look at it). The high-pass filter (below) provides an approximate 18dB/octave roll-off and 5.3dB of boost @ 40Hz. The steep roll-off prevents infra-sonic frequencies from unloading the woofer at high power levels. This was initially designed for the ported LaScala, but works equally well on the ported Heresy. The high-pass filter extends the ported Heresy to an F3 of 44.5Hz. You can definitely hear the extra 10Hz extension. 

 

 

 

18dB Filter Frequency Response_071621 (2).png

18dB Filter with boost_071621 (2).png

Edited by Curious_George
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19 hours ago, Curious_George said:

First, I'd like to applaud Claude (no pun intended there) for his work on the ported Heresy mod. Back in 2012 I asked about a ported Heresy but did not get very far at the time with the project. Life and you know, life has a habit of getting in the way. Now, I have a bit more time on my hands and can tinker more (hopefully). 

 

My ported Heresy (circa 1979 version) is using a Celestion TF1225 woofer. The factory specs on the TF1225 are almost identical to the Eminence Delta Pro12A. Measured specs (with a DATS V2) are similar to factory specs, but more favorable for the small Heresy enclosure. I tuned the Heresy enclosure to 55Hz with 4" PVC, 3 5/8" long. Speaker modeling with WinISD shows that F3 is 56.4Hz. That corresponds with a box volume of 1.715 cubic feet. I have also modified my Type E crossover to ALK Universal Type for the Heresy. Stock K77 & K55V are still being used. 

No room measurements yet, but the TF1225 sounds as good or better than the K22 woofer. Even though the F3 is 56.4 Hz, room gain is making it sound like there is a bit more down below. 

 

Similar to the ported LaScala mod (which I have also done), the ported Heresy can benefit from a high-pass active filter with low damping (or a high Q, depends on how you want to look at it). The high-pass filter (below) provides an approximate 18dB/octave roll-off and 5.3dB of boost @ 40Hz. The steep roll-off prevents infra-sonic frequencies from unloading the woofer at high power levels. This was initially designed for the ported LaScala, but works equally well on the ported Heresy. The high-pass filter extends the ported Heresy to an F3 of 44.5Hz. You can definitely hear the extra 10Hz extension. 

 

 

 

18dB Filter Frequency Response_071621 (2).png

18dB Filter with boost_071621 (2).png

I don’t suppose you have the schematic for the old ALK universal kicking around do you? I had some DIY versions that came with some speakers I picked up a while ago and would like to confirm they were assembled properly. 

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On 7/17/2021 at 4:54 PM, Curious_George said:

My ported Heresy (circa 1979 version) is using a Celestion TF1225 woofer. The factory specs on the TF1225 are almost identical to the Eminence Delta Pro12A. Measured specs (with a DATS V2) are similar to factory specs, but more favorable for the small Heresy enclosure. I tuned the Heresy enclosure to 55Hz with 4" PVC, 3 5/8" long. Speaker modeling with WinISD shows that F3 is 56.4Hz. That corresponds with a box volume of 1.715 cubic feet. I have also modified my Type E crossover to ALK Universal Type for the Heresy. Stock K77 & K55V are still being used. 

No room measurements yet, but the TF1225 sounds as good or better than the K22 woofer. Even though the F3 is 56.4 Hz, room gain is making it sound like there is a bit more down below. 

I applaud you efforts as well, for actually looking at other woofer data before Leaping with your wallet and time.

 

It used to frustrate me when several people asked if they could use other, totally WRONG woofers they had "just laying around" instead of getting the 3 that I recommended that actually worked!!!

 

There are probably other Pro Woofers from other companies that would work also, but I never looked for them because it was so cheap and easy to get the Eminence products made in the USA, and the major Pro Woofer supplier to Klipsch. But your choice of Celestion is a sane one based on your scientific methods. As you already know, putting 20 watts through those things can make music "stupid loud" quite easily, since you Intelligently high passed them!!

 

Happy listening!

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On 7/9/2021 at 10:52 AM, Fido said:

Following Claude’s recipe except the capacitor mods made my super heresies sound fantastic very close to my Forte 1s. I sold them to a Klipsch lover who is temporarily using them in his large warehouse before his basement remodel is done and he says he loves them as is in that space. Said they are the best Heresy speakers he has ever heard, by far.

I think you meant without the "T2A resoldering mods" since you installed same value capacitors without changing the Autoformer, correct? I wasn't there, so I don't exactly know what you did, but relied on your feedback. Correct me if I'm wrong about exactly what you did.

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1 hour ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I think you meant without the "T2A resoldering mods" since you installed same value capacitors without changing the Autoformer, correct? I wasn't there, so I don't exactly know what you did, but relied on your feedback. Correct me if I'm wrong about exactly what you did.

I don't know exactly what I did and I was there! LOL

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just a little update, unfortunately this is more in the "making them look nice enough for my significant other to allow them in her house" realm of progress than making them super heresys. Delta pros are on order as well as the 4" flared ports, foam arrived yesterday and today is adding layers of finish to the veneer and building the risers, this was my first attempt at a veneer project and I'm very very happy with how they're turning out. 

 

I did have one question claude, re: original iron core inductor on the type E network. Is there anywhere that lists its DCR spec? I did a quick measure with my fluke when I was making sure the air core I had laying around from an old ALK crossover would work but the resolution doesn't get down to the hundreths' of ohms. Was just wondering if there is an actual spec for that part laying around, my googling has only found anecdotal "around 0.3 ohms".

 

Anyway! next step is just foam, port and woofer to see how it sounds once those parts show up, and in the meantime try not to go deaf listening to my jubescalas.

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  • 5 weeks later...
On 5/28/2014 at 5:35 PM, ClaudeJ1 said:

I will present this mod in incremental steps:

For the bass improvement: order this flared port (cheap) https://www.parts-express.com/speaker-cabinet-port-tube-4-id-x-4-l-flared--260-403 and cut the appropriate size hole in the rear bottom corner.  

Remove the K-22 woofer and replace with K-42-K, ordered from Klipsch parts or an Eminence Delta Pro 12A from Parts Express if you don't have a serial number on the back of your old Heresy Cabinets. You should use 8 screws per woofer instead of just 4, since the magnet is huge on the K-42 and very heavy. The woofer weighs almost 20 lbs. and more screws are cheap insurance. You will need #10, 1 1/4" screws since the cast woofer frame is thicker than the K22 you are removing.

Put foam on all surfaces inside the cabinet to absorb and keep the rear generated midrange stuff from bouncing around.

You will need to increase the K55 idrange and tweeter output by 3 db to match the more efficient woofer.

I have an "E" network, so I changed the first capacitor going to the autoformer from 2 uf. to a 4 uf. You can buy 3 new caps, or just solder two 2 uf. capacitor in parallel, when you buy 6 total (which will give you 4 uf) on top of each other there now if your network was refreshed. If not replace those old fat original capacitors with the following: https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-dmpc-20-20uf-250v-polypropylene-capacitor--027-414

Unsolder the wires from terminal 2 (K55V midrange position) and 3 (tweeter position). Now solder the midrange wire that was on terminal #2 onto #3. Those of you with "D" networks should reverse the leads going to the K55V driver.

Take the K-77 tweeter wire and solder it to terminal #4 on the autoformer. This should have been unused before.

For a tweeter that stomps a K-77 and is worth every penny, do what I did to get those sweet, flat tweeter portions of my curves and superior definition on cymbals and harmonics of all instruments.

Go to @Dave A for the B&C120 driver and his sMAHL 2.0 tweeter lens, or for a cheaper alternative that still fits, get the DE-10 (after measuring and using both, I prefer this over the more expensive DE-120).

So now after 6 years, 1 month, and 2 days, I offer the following updates:  Karlson3 and Wirruna got me thinking about possible variations that are easier and cheaper, that simply make good/bad/different compromises in the results. Only YOU know what you like best so I will give a bit more room to PLAY with different values. In other words, a bigger sandbox that the above modification demands. I've come to terms with people who want more wiggle room. Pragmatic vs. Dogmatic, so here goes:

1) First and foremost,  I modified a Heresy "E" network, to have 4uF capacitors for the midrange and tweeter (double the original 2 uF value), it ended up looking like a Cornwall "B" network EXCEPT with the POLARITIES on the mid/tweets were REVERSED in the modified E (vs. a pure B, which they are not). So if you bought a Cornwall B network, just reverse the polarities if you want.............all 6 db per octave (First Order), but it's your call on the phase response you end up with.

 

As you will see, depending on which woofer you end up using, your ROOM, how far the speakers are IN/OUT of Walls/Corners, your personal taste, etc. etc. you may want to TWEAK your own variables to your TASTE, ok? For the woofer section, the original 2.5 milliHenry Klipsch Iron Core choke worked fine to my ears. Remember, this will control the Midrange Frequency Rolloff as it hands the sound over to the Midrange Horn. My using the original woofer inductor was part convenience/laziness, and it measured/sounded good to ME. But it was for a Klipsch K-42 or Eminence Delta Pro 12A woofer. As other woofer options are presented down below, you have the freedom to try NO INDUCTOR, up to 4 mH to choke off the midrange portion of the woofer. If you choose Second Order Network, similar to a Cornwall B2, you can add a parallel capacitor from 20-60 uF on the woofer, which will yield a 12 db/octave rolloff which will be clearly audible since "the midrange is where we live" according to PWK and others. Improved midrange was my original reason for the woofer change to begin with but ported bass was also a bonus. You can also vary the Capacitor values on the Midrange and Tweeter sections from 1 to 4 uF (micro Farad) to shift the roll UP frequencies on the low end of the horns. Again, the audibility of this may be questionable and only those who measure may SEE a difference from small changes, like 2 uF vs. 2.2 uF, etc. Between messing with these values, port length, polarities, etc. you could be messing with this stuff for a year and never be satisfied. Who am I to limit the Tweakers' Playground to a small sandbox!!

 

2) If your are going to play with all these variables, then you may as well be able to use a Crites Autoformer with fine 1 db steps instead of crude 3 db steps in the Klipsch T2a. WARNING!  This could extend your playtime for another year. LOL.

 

3) Adding another variable to FIXED box volume of a Klipsch Heresy, there's a woofer choice that someone may wish to try. I still think the original K-42 or Eminence Delta Pro 12A is the best (most expensive too) choice for the best MIDRANGE response (high BL product AND low voice coil inductance), the Dayton PA 310-A is an economical substitute at about half of the price. I guess you need to choose whether to keep the profits in the USA or send some to China, which is beyond the scope of this text. I want to point out that this woofer simulated curve in Black is superimposed over the the original K42 in Gray. You can see a slight bass extension, but with less efficiency and a rolloff that begins 300 Hz. sooner. I hope to be working on a Super Heresy 2.0 soon and I may end up trying this woofer. It's possible that it may be used WITHOUT any inductor since it has almost twice the inductance of a K-42 that is partially responsible for the early midrange rolloff. There's another Klipschead from another continent that will be using this woofer. I hope he posts his results and measurements here for all to see and read his impressions of the sound quality. I just want to remind everyone that room SIZE and speaker PLACEMENT, and Listener POSITION will more RADICALLY change the bass response than these simulate curves ever could convey. Always keep that in mind when you do this stuff.

 

Also see the latest Version 2.0 of this mod:

 

PA310vsDeltaPro.jpg

Cornwall B network.gif.jpg

ClaudeJ1, I have decided to do this build in accordance with the instructions I see in your post. I was wondering if the schematic shown here is the one I should use/latest iteration? I will be using the same drivers (K-52, K55, B&C 110) and same cabinet modifications including Dave's horn and the bass port. I will be building my crossovers at the encouragement of your friend Jim and have ordered all my parts. I am ready to start once they come in the Mail given I am following the above crossover drawing. I haven't purchased the midrange drivers yet so if you suggest something better I will go that direction. Thanks for any input you can offer as I am fully open to all tips and criticisms. Plus, I am super grateful for all you have shared here. 

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@ClaudeJ1Thank you for sharing all this great information. I'm 100% going to (attempt) build my own pair of SH. Just want to be sure if this is the correct crossover schematic I should use? I have read this and your later thread and am wanting to get it correct on the first time. I did not see a later iteration of the crossover. I plan to build it myself. As for the drivers, so far I have two perfect condition K-42 woofers. I will be getting Dave's elliptical lenses and the B&C HF drivers. Not sure which mid drivers. I see there are two great choices. Ports and port tubes arrived yesterday.  All crossover parts arrived minus two caps that are taking a bit longer to ship. Open for all encouragements, advice and criticisms. I will post my results here if you like. This shouldn't take long, thanks to your help. 

1902617153_CornwallBnetwork.gif.jpg.3875afb13d386cce1a615390c7c047a8.jpg 2.webloc

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The type E network should be tried first before you do a B with reversed polarities on the mid and tweet horns. You may like this variation. My original was a modified E which turned into a B. The E already having the polarities reversed, so those who used a Cornwall B network had to do that manually.

 

I you already have B components, then don't forget to reverse the polarity to the horns is all I'm saying.

 

Report your success here.

 

If you are not successful, report it on another forum and blame someone else. LOL.

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  • 3 weeks later...

@ClaudeJ1I was wondering what effect will it have to change the tweeter captacitor from 2uF to 4uF?

 

I have running my Super Heresys with your original instructions. I modified my "E" networks with new caps 2uF in the tweeter and 4uF in the mids along with the autofomer adjustment recommended, Mids in tap 3 and tweeter in 4.

 

I want to open them and play with tweeter cap values but I want to hear opinions first. 

 

Thanks, 

ROB 

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2 hours ago, bluerob said:

@ClaudeJ1I was wondering what effect will it have to change the tweeter captacitor from 2uF to 4uF?

 

I have running my Super Heresys with your original instructions. I modified my "E" networks with new caps 2uF in the tweeter and 4uF in the mids along with the autofomer adjustment recommended, Mids in tap 3 and tweeter in 4.

 

I want to open them and play with tweeter cap values but I want to hear opinions first. 

 

Thanks, 

ROB 

If you have E networks, you can just recap them and use the original T2A taps, after the woofer and tweeter swap. If you find things too "Bassy," then change the cap values AND resolder the taps to a different place, like in the B network. Doubling the both mid and tweet cap values maintains the same Crossover point as a regular Heresy while raising the output by 3 db for the mid and tweet level. You should do this progressively as you go, but the main change is the WOOFER driver and the HOLE/Port inclusion in the rear. Start with just that FIRST, the go one to the others if you find a need. My original mod was a bit "hot" in the Tweeter Sibilance area, but the room and your AGE make a difference there. Your ears will be the final judge, along with your favorite FAMILIAR music!

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On 7/18/2021 at 12:09 PM, zeagan said:

I don’t suppose you have the schematic for the old ALK universal kicking around do you? I had some DIY versions that came with some speakers I picked up a while ago and would like to confirm they were assembled properly. 

 

I believe I have it on my PC, which is off for the night. I'll have to dig around for it tomorrow after work.

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On 9/7/2021 at 5:09 PM, ClaudeJ1 said:

The type E network should be tried first before you do a B with reversed polarities on the mid and tweet horns. You may like this variation. My original was a modified E which turned into a B. The E already having the polarities reversed, so those who used a Cornwall B network had to do that manually.

 

I you already have B components, then don't forget to reverse the polarity to the horns is all I'm saying.

 

Report your success here.

 

If you are not successful, report it on another forum and blame someone else. LOL.

Oh, and another thing, the additional BASS response from the rear port is highly dependent on proximity to rear and side walls. Defined as "asymmetrical corner placement," if you will. I other words, you will be free to play with this until it sounds right to you with your favorite test music.

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The Delta Pro's I ordered months back are still on back order so I sort of gave up at this point and in the meantime fell in love with the normal H1 sound, once they come back in stock I might move forward with it but not exactly suffering in the meantime. Also love how the rear panels turned out with the new veneer, mirrored offset terminals for when it's time to throw a 4" port in there. 

 

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