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Super Heresy 1 (Baby Cornwalls Mod.)


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Mark is bound and determined to put those K-60's into......something....but really, I don't blame him, he's got these badazz huge drivers, and is looking to put them to good use....I was just afraid that my main house fuse panel was going to start arcing and sparking if we installed them somewhere....:emotion-19:

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On 8/24/2016 at 1:13 PM, mwhitwo3 said:

Claudes Baby Cornwall´s with ALK CSW crossovers sound very nice.  My Heresy 1.5´s have the K-52-H midrange and I felt the midrange needed to be dampened a bit after finishing Claudes Baby Cornwall mod.  So I got intouch will Al and bought a pair of CSW crossovers and a pair of Eliptrac HF horns with the DE 120 driver.

Spent hours last weekend with a musician friend of mine fine tuning the CSW crossover. I rewired the speakers and ran the wires through the port so I had the crossover on the floor during the fine tuning. This made tap changes a lot faster. We tried everything from10 dB to 6 on the mid and 6 dB to 2 on the tweeter. Playing the same songs over and over we came up with the setting 8 and 2 , which we both felt that gave a great result. The bass was just  as strong as before with the type B crossover but the CSW crossover allowed us to dampen the midrange a bit. The songs we played were Dire Staits Sultans Of Swing , this song sounded good on most of the crossover settings. But on The Beatles ,With A Little Help From My Friends it was easier to fine tune the cossover to what we thought, was a wonderfull soundstage  Not having room for a Cornwall, Claudes mod brought me pretty close to having one after all. Thanks again Claude

Mike

I missed this post last year for some reason. Anyhow, I did this mod a few years ago and sold off my original (and best) pair to JimJimbo. The other 3 went to an old friend who is not an Audiophile, but needed them as Left, Center, Right speakers of a Home Theater, along with some unfinished Big Bass Reflex Boxes with Monster 18's I had as part of the package.

 

Anyhow, his neighbor is an Audiophile and has B&W speakers he likes to brag about. So to make a long story short, with the Onkyo 818 in 2.1 mode, he brought over all of his "Test CD's" and a strong, skeptical "you gotta show me" attitude.

 

Needless to say, the setup just blew his friggin' mind. He coudn't believe how loud and clean these could play vs. what I called his "British Space Heaters." This happened even with the big 18" subs turned off.

 

He was enjoying it so much, he didn't want to leave, LOL.

 

Now about mwhitwo3's modification. My original post had some VERY precise instructions on what, where, and how to do the Baby Cornwall mod on a HERESY 1.

His mod was on a Heresy 1.5. Remember, different is NOT the same, LOL.

 

So, while the same box volume, exact driver,  port size, Parts Express flared port glued in, with proper insulation to absorb resonance will yield the same bass response (still very room and placement dependent below 150 Hz). Having a DIFFERENT midrange driver will not give the same sound. You can still use the Klipsch K-77 tweeter, no problem, but the original midrange driver was a K-55 (same as the Khorn) and NOT whatever the Heresy 1.5 used.

 

So right off the bat you will run into some issues with the all important midrange area. So what I'm saying is unless you do EXACTLY what I specified, you will encounter some different issues to solve, but they won't be in the bass extension area, only in the IMPORTANT midrange and treble areas, thus requiring a different BALANCING NETWORK (as you have discovered for yourself).

 

My goal was to keep things as simple and straightforward as possible at a reasonable cost. If you choose to deviate from my original "prescriptions" then you will own the resultant pain, if any. That being said, I'm glad you guys are trying different things, but you can't expect the same results if you do anything different (in different rooms). It's up to your ears, instruments, money, and RESPONSIBILITY for those deviations, good or bad. All the best to y'all!!

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I read in a different Cornwall thread that the k-52h mid driver (same as the k-57) is 2-3db hotter than the k-55 drivers which explains why you had to lower the mid by an extra 2db. I found this out myself when measuring and comparing the stock mids in the forte II to the new A55g mid driver. Here's a link to the thread and the quote:

 

This is the response that I got from Steve Phillips at Klipsch

 

"Well, My suggestion would be no, you could not use the B-3 with the K-55-V.

There spl differences between the 55-V and 57-K, 57 is about 2 to 3 dB higher

I do not have specs on them, but the network differences are easy to notice.

Not sure if you have the B-3, but I will send it along.

Caps and tap points are different.

You may be able to just change the tap points and the mid level be correct.

I would suggest that it may not cause any problems using the network, just may not sound "right."

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18 minutes ago, jjptkd said:

I read in a different Cornwall thread that the k-52h mid driver (same as the k-57) is 2-3db hotter than the k-55 drivers which explains why you had to lower the mid by an extra 2db. I found this out myself when measuring and comparing the stock mids in the forte II to the new A55g mid driver. Here's a link to the thread and the quote:

 

This is the response that I got from Steve Phillips at Klipsch

 

"Well, My suggestion would be no, you could not use the B-3 with the K-55-V.

There spl differences between the 55-V and 57-K, 57 is about 2 to 3 dB higher

I do not have specs on them, but the network differences are easy to notice.

Not sure if you have the B-3, but I will send it along.

Caps and tap points are different.

You may be able to just change the tap points and the mid level be correct.

I would suggest that it may not cause any problems using the network, just may not sound "right."

Aha! There it is and should explain the why. Great support of my original point, since my mod was for a K55 and NOT a K52/K57 mid driver. I'm glad a solution was found, though.

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 6/20/2017 at 6:19 AM, acidmilk said:

I'm really glad I found this thread right before listing my Heresy 1 in local hi-fi trading forum. Will definitely order a pair of Eminence Delta Pro 12A and the ports. Thanks Claude!!

Let us know about your success and photos!!

 

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On 28/6/2017 at 10:56 AM, ClaudeJ1 said:

Let us know about your success and photos!!

 

Hi Claude, will definitely keep you updated.

 

Currently, my Heresy's crossovers are modded based on this thread: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/21969-heresy-crossover-mod-less-bright/

 

After reading your thread, I started searching this forum and found from this thread that JBL woofers can be used as drop-in replacement for the K22: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/6768-damping-heresy-cabinets/

 

So a few days ago, I tried putting JBL 123A from my 4310 into my Heresies (see attached pics). After a few days of listening, I really like the sound. Faster, punchier bass that goes a little bit lower than K22. I'll try porting and stuffing the box first with these 123A to see how it sounds.

 

Also after reading your thread, I started to understand some speaker parameters, and found that JBL 123A has lower Fs (25Hz) than the Eminence (50 Hz). Does it mean anything? I'll try to tune the box to 40 Hz.

 

After playing with the JBL 123A, I'll try the Eminence (already arrived home).

 

Cheers :-D

 

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Mr. acidmilk,

 

I believe the JBL drivers traditionally have very strong magnets, which gives them a high BL product. The k-42 woofers are presently, I believe made by Eminence and formerly made by Electro Voice. Those are the drivers I SIMULATED with two different software packages to come up with this thread. Before I even posted it, I measured in a living room in and out of corner. Port and woofer separately. Then I was amazed by the performance in my bedroom when I was measureing 30 Hz. bass......Wow. Only THEN, did I share the mod, with the full confidence it would work for others. Yes it has.

 

So unless there is lots of luck involved, using another driver whose T/S parameters are unknown and has not been simulated, I can't speak to with any confidence. Even when keeping the K-77 tweeter, my mod increases the bass output as well as the midrange clarity, for a truly superlative performance  when using the EXACT woofers I specified.

 

However if you are planning on going to the trouble of doing this while waiting for the right woofers to arrive, there's no harm in trying what you already have just for fun. In my experience, substituting other drivers does not give the same performance................different, perhaps, but not necessarily better. However, there is a possibility that you would LIKE IT better than a stock K-22 in a sealed box, so what harm is there in trying it, eh?

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  • 1 month later...
  • ClaudeJ1 changed the title to Super Heresy 1 (Baby Cornwalls Mod.)

After an upsurge in interest on this topic, I feel compelled to summarize the following:

 

If you want to do this Super Heresy Modification, then you must start with the EXACT woofers and ports to get the EXACT same results. Otherwise, you are on your own if you use a different woofer.

 

I'm not saying this to discourage any of you. However DIFFERENT is NOT the same.

 

The most critical parts of the UPGRADE is the WOOFER, the PORT and, to a lesser degree, the insulation. Either a Klipsch K-42 or an Eminence Delta Pro 12A must be used. You can't just use "whatever happens to be laying around" and make a Super Heresy out of it, it won't work.

 

Now you can keep the K-77, or whatever tweeter you have, since that is not as critical as the MIDRANGE. Now if your network does NOT have a T2A Autoformer (-3 db increments) from Klipsch, like all the Heresy 1's have with the K55/Atlas/Grey driver. Instead you a black EV version of a K55 (which has an improved dual phase plug), but this could have a different network,  which may not have the exact same attenuation or capacitor value. However, both have the K700 Metal horn, and a T2A, I believe.

 

Also, you may have a version "1.5" Heresy when Klipsch started making their own plastic horns and with a different driver and a fixed Autoformer (not an adjustable T2A). In any and all cases, I heartily recommend you get a Bob Crites Autoformer. It's build is superior AND it has the ability to lower the MIDRANGE and TWEETER in -1 db increments, allowing for much greater "tweaking precision."

 

Happy New Year and Happy Modding. You will find the expense and effort worthwhile. Your ears will thank you.

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Links to parts needed

If anyone has a source for a lower price on the woofer, please share it here if you can.

 

Parts Express is currently selling the Eminence Delta Pro 12A woofer for $129.99 Each (will require 2)

https://www.parts-express.com/eminence-delta-pro-12a-12-cast-frame-driver--290-510

 

Parts Express has the plastic 4 inch ports for $2.89 Each (will require 2)

https://www.parts-express.com/speaker-cabinet-port-tube-4-id-x-4-l-flared--260-403

 

Amazon has a 6 pack of acoustic egg crate foam for $8.49

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076JNCQ39/_encoding=UTF8?coliid=IS87SA03DYI68&colid=3KSFOVF15C12W&psc=1

 

Bob Crites has the 3636 autotransformer for $36 Each (plus shipping) (will require 2)

http://www.critesspeakers.com/prices-other_stuff.html

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Thanks to Claude and Jim for the above information.

Claude, I will follow you instructions.

 

I do not have a pair of Heresy's to start with. In searching for a pair, are you saying that early versions are a better choice because of the metal horns?

Seems that Jim is starting with just the boxes.

 

As I looked for K-42 speakers last night, i believe I found speakers with a -P and -E suffix.  Is there a functional difference?

 

Jerry

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1 minute ago, TFR1 said:

Thanks to Claude and Jim for the above information.

Claude, I will follow you instructions.

 

I do not have a pair of Heresy's to start with. In searching for a pair, are you saying that early versions are a better choice because of the metal horns?

Seems that Jim is starting with just the boxes.

 

As I looked for K-42 speakers last night, i believe I found speakers with a -P and -E suffix.  Is there a functional difference?

 

Jerry

No functional difference, just a different manufacturer and/or where they were made. EV, CTS of Paducah, and Eminence...............all to within a few percent of the same specification.

 

Lots of Ebayers buy Heresy 1's at Garage Sales and Part them out. So you can buy the cabinets, metal horns, and Atlas K55 drivers separately and get your own Woofer, tweeter (B&C DE-10 with Fastrac Horn lens, or Crites CT-125 recommended). If you get the Fastrac, you will have to trim 2 corners to get them to fit.

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