Sb100 Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 I'm curious if this is a good idea. I had some paradigm speakers years ago that I had bi - amped and they sounded good, they were hooked up to a Yamaha AVR. I now have RF82II's as my LF/RF speakers hooked to a denon. I was told awhile ago that there is no need to bi-amp the RF82II's due to the fact that the crossover in the speaker was set at something like 1400Hz and that, if bi-amped, you cannot set the crossover on the AVR that high, most AVR crossovers only go up to about 250Hz, and there would be no reason, or it wouldn't be good or beneficial to bi-amp the RF82II's. I was wondering if this line of thought holds merit, or should I be bi-amping. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Only using an active crossover would be beneficial. That would require the removal of your current crossover from the cabinet. My vote would be to leave em alone and let em tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeker Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 active xover with tubes on top solid state on bottom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swapface Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 My experience is that more power is better than less power when it comes to my RF-82's. I have a Pioneer VSX-52 which runs 110 WPC and the RF-82's sounded ok. When I bi amped my RF-82's they sounded so much better. Later I moved to pre amping to a a Emotiva XPA-5 delivering 200 WPC and they sounded even better. The mids and the low end were much richer and it made the speakers warmer and less harsh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbiey60 Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 My experience is that more power is better than less power when it comes to my RF-82's. I have a Pioneer VSX-52 which runs 110 WPC and the RF-82's sounded ok. When I bi amped my RF-82's they sounded so much better. Later I moved to pre amping to a a Emotiva XPA-5 delivering 200 WPC and they sounded even better. The mids and the low end were much richer and it made the speakers warmer and less harsh.On seperate amps yes they are good. On a receiver bi-amping does nothing as there is only 1 power supply, just halves the power per channel and then doubles it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sb100 Posted May 31, 2014 Author Share Posted May 31, 2014 My experience is that more power is better than less power when it comes to my RF-82's Interesting you bring that up. I had considered buying a 5 channel amp and using the Denon pre outs (until at some point I can get a pre/pro), but after doing some posting and reading over at AVS forum, most everyone there agrees that, more power doesn't make a speaker sound better, it just makes it louder, and that in order to get better sound, you need to upgrade to a higher end speaker, but more power will not do anything but increase volume. Thoughts? speaking of seperates, if I were to ever go seperates, what do I need? Is it just a matter of buying 5 monoblocks, or a 5/7 channel amp block, and then getting a processor? Is the pre amp part of the processor or is it a separate piece? Some people say just use the preamp from your AVR and that will be good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Sb100, Welcome to the forum. I had considered buying a 5 channel amp and using the Denon pre outs (until at some point I can get a pre/pro), but after doing some posting and reading over at AVS forum, most everyone there agrees that, more power doesn't make a speaker sound better, it just makes it louder, and that in order to get better sound, you need to upgrade to a higher end speaker, but more power will not do anything but increase volume. Thoughts? I agree and disagree. True, more power will make it go louder(+3dB when power doubled) but not always "better". The quality of parts and engineering in both preamp and amplifier working in a synergistic manner with your sources and speakers will have more impact on the "better" than just more power. Oh yeah, let's not forget about room acoustics. My first experimentation with an outboard amp came in the form of a B&K Reference 4430 3-channel amp(200w/ch) driving my RF-63/RC-62 combo with my Onkyo TX-SR705 only driving the two surrounds. It was a huge improvement over just the 705 handling all amplification. The soundstage opened up, midbass punch was much more pronounced, and the midrange took on a "warmish" signature while still maintaining a good bit of detail. My system then would play louder "effortlessly" and to my ears sounded better. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Interesting you bring that up. I had considered buying a 5 channel amp and using the Denon pre outs (until at some point I can get a pre/pro), but after doing some posting and reading over at AVS forum, most everyone there agrees that, more power doesn't make a speaker sound better, it just makes it louder, and that in order to get better sound, you need to upgrade to a higher end speaker, but more power will not do anything but increase volume. Thoughts? I agree with the people at AVS--Put the jumpers back on and run one set of wires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) Power will help if the speakers are being under powered. Also, if there is not enough power for dynamic peaks. Many avr's are capable of driving the Reference line. The power distribution for the LF/HF is like 90/10. The difference in Bi-amping the RF 82's will not be significant. Room treatments, good source material and, the use of a sub will net a bigger improvement. The sub will afford the amp or avr more head room for dynamic peaks. Edited May 31, 2014 by derrickdj1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swapface Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Perhaps I should expand some on my experience. Originally I was driving my system with only the VSX-52. Was fooling around with my son driving the speakers hard on some dub step music. Later that evening I was watching TV and the speakers sounded weird. The upper mids and highs sounded almost fuzzy. I called Klipsch the next day and the support guy said it is not good to drive them hard without enough power and suggested that perhaps I blew the tweeters out. He sent out new tweeters and suggest I bi-amp so that does not happen again or go with pre outs and get a better amp to drive the speakers with. First I bi-amped and noticed an immediate difference in the sound. It was more expansive and the lower mids sounded so much better. 6 months later I was able to afford the XPA-5. This time the sound did improve some but the biggest thing I noticed was how much warmer it sounded. I can also switch the RF-82's to a tube amp. If I am just listening to music I usually use the configuration with no processing. They sound sweet and mellow with the tube amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) Perhaps I should expand some on my experience. Originally I was driving my system with only the VSX-52. Was fooling around with my son driving the speakers hard on some dub step music. Later that evening I was watching TV and the speakers sounded weird. The upper mids and highs sounded almost fuzzy. I called Klipsch the next day and the support guy said it is not good to drive them hard without enough power and suggested that perhaps I blew the tweeters out. He sent out new tweeters and suggest I bi-amp so that does not happen again or go with pre outs and get a better amp to drive the speakers with. First I bi-amped and noticed an immediate difference in the sound. It was more expansive and the lower mids sounded so much better. 6 months later I was able to afford the XPA-5. This time the sound did improve some but the biggest thing I noticed was how much warmer it sounded.... I really find it puzzling that they would recommend "biamping" with an AVR to remedy overdriving your speakers....You also seem satisfied on how you handled the situation , which is great, but for the OP-- I agree with derrick that the benefits would be nominal (if any) considering his explanation and how the crossover in the speaker works. Edited May 31, 2014 by tkdamerica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 90% of the power when biamping an avr is dissapated in the xo network. Most likely the tweeter never uses more that 10 watts. I have used an 80 tub hybird on my RF 7's to ear bleeding levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Perhaps I should expand some on my experience. Originally I was driving my system with only the VSX-52. Was fooling around with my son driving the speakers hard on some dub step music. Later that evening I was watching TV and the speakers sounded weird. The upper mids and highs sounded almost fuzzy. I called Klipsch the next day and the support guy said it is not good to drive them hard without enough power and suggested that perhaps I blew the tweeters out. He sent out new tweeters and suggest I bi-amp so that does not happen again or go with pre outs and get a better amp to drive the speakers with. First I bi-amped and noticed an immediate difference in the sound. It was more expansive and the lower mids sounded so much better. 6 months later I was able to afford the XPA-5. This time the sound did improve some but the biggest thing I noticed was how much warmer it sounded. I can also switch the RF-82's to a tube amp. If I am just listening to music I usually use the configuration with no processing. They sound sweet and mellow with the tube amp. well in a since they were right. You prolly clipped them for too long and blew the tweeters. From underpowering. As they were also right that more power can help that particular situation out. But then you gotta think about this, rf-82's can only play so loud. Most guys in here are trying to say 99% of the time an avr will do. An amp will squeeze a tiny but more out of the rf-82's. But I'd recommend going to a more capable speaker from that before buying an amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swapface Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Perhaps I should expand some on my experience. Originally I was driving my system with only the VSX-52. Was fooling around with my son driving the speakers hard on some dub step music. Later that evening I was watching TV and the speakers sounded weird. The upper mids and highs sounded almost fuzzy. I called Klipsch the next day and the support guy said it is not good to drive them hard without enough power and suggested that perhaps I blew the tweeters out. He sent out new tweeters and suggest I bi-amp so that does not happen again or go with pre outs and get a better amp to drive the speakers with. First I bi-amped and noticed an immediate difference in the sound. It was more expansive and the lower mids sounded so much better. 6 months later I was able to afford the XPA-5. This time the sound did improve some but the biggest thing I noticed was how much warmer it sounded. I can also switch the RF-82's to a tube amp. If I am just listening to music I usually use the configuration with no processing. They sound sweet and mellow with the tube amp. well in a since they were right. You prolly clipped them for too long and blew the tweeters. From underpowering. As they were also right that more power can help that particular situation out. But then you gotta think about this, rf-82's can only play so loud. Most guys in here are trying to say 99% of the time an avr will do. An amp will squeeze a tiny but more out of the rf-82's. But I'd recommend going to a more capable speaker from that before buying an amp. Oh yeah, I totally agree about the limits of the RF-82s. I have my sights on RF-7's / RC-64 combo as soon as I find the right deal and the timing is right. We don't have as many opportunities out here on the west coast. But it will be patient and a good deal will come along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeker Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Im telling ya. if you want a spot to aim for or ready to spend money small tube amp on top moderate solid state on bottom....you'll have some sweet keepers. otherwise run a pair of wires...neg&pos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sb100 Posted May 31, 2014 Author Share Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) Well, it seems that the general consensus is the same, bi-amping or buying separate amps is not going to do anything for me. I live in an apartment, and I really don't get into high volumes much. Most of the time, I watch movies at moderate levels and music at low to moderate levels. I was hoping that by upping my power with an outboard amp that I would hear cleaner, crisper sound, and more detail, but, looks like i'm probably going to get the best out of these speakers with what I have, so, i'll leave it at that. Cant really afford the RF7's, let alone the Paladium. About the only thing I could do to improve my sound would be to try and listen to some Polk RTiA speakers (not sure if that's an upgrade), or work on getting some auditions of some of these online only stores (BIC America, Axiom, etc..). But there again, im not sure if those would be upgrades, downgrades, or just an equal move. I like the Klipsch because the horn tweeter gives me that detail and vividness I want out of a set of speakers that will not cost an arm and a leg. I had a set of Infinity Primus speakers, which sounded too warm. Years ago I had some Paradigm Monitor 9's that, from what I can remember, sounded really good. Ive listened to some of the Polk TSx speakers at Frys, and comparing them to the Infinity, they were much brighter and more detailed, but, when I went back a second time to listen, they didn't sound quite as good anymore. I've not heard any of the online speakers such as BIC, Axiom, HTD, I hear they are good. The thing about all of these speakers is that they almost always use a dome tweeter, which is fine, but generally not as detailed. Years ago, when I bought my paradigm speakers, I could have bought Klipsch, but I didn't want them because I had always heard the sound was harsh and "tinny", and I didn't want that. Now, after listening to them in my home, I like the bright sound. I like the detail that it gives. When watching movies, when glass breaks, I want to hear the "tinkle" as it hits the floor, other subtle details come out because of the horn tweeter as well. I do wish the mids were a little bit more warm, but, that may be because of how I have my sub set up. I have everything crossed over at 80Hz, and my sub is behind my seating area, which, is possible that it is creating a null that i'm not hearing the full range of audio below 80Hz. When I had my paradigms, I had a paradigm sub at the front of the room, a front firing sub and I liked the sound of it, but due to being in an apartment, and trying to find the best place for my sub, people suggested that I put the sub behind me so i'd get more of the near field bass. I wonder though, is near field bass a good thing or a bad thing? In reading, it appears that bass sound waves are longer than other frequencies, so, having bass that close, would it not cause the audio to reach my ears before the sound has fully "matured"? In other words, would it be better to have the sub further away than closer? Such as putting it on the front wall? I did my sub crawl and, according to what I heard, I got the best bass from the wall behind me, near the corner. But corner bass tends to be "boomy" and not accurate, correct? This would explain why a lot of times, when I play music, my bass sounds "one notey". Also, when I did my sub crawl it was with a Yamaha AVR, which, from what I understand, YPAO does not do bass equalization. Since then, I've gotten a Denon AVR, which Audyssey does do bass equalization. Maybe it's time I do the sub crawl again. Anyway, I do have another question. I've been considering getting a Klipsch SW115. Front firing sub, heard it at Frys in their presentation room just a little. Sounded good, but didn't really listen a lot. Right now I have an outlaw audio LFM1 +, which is downfiring 12" dual port tunable sub. Sounds great as well. Has good bass extension, but again, due to placement, I think im missing out on some frequencies. With 1 port plugged in max extension mode, it is rated down to 18Hz, however, seems like in the really low freq's, the sound drops out, like it doesn't have enough umph to get down there...again, probably due to placement. When testing my sub with the Bass Mechanic test program running from my iPhone, test tones down to 25-28Hz seemed to be audible, but dropping down toward 20Hz seemed to be more "felt' than heard. I could hear the dishes in my cabinet, and other things in my apartment rattling, but didn't really hear much of the bass. Does anyone have suggestions or any experience with the Klipsch subs vs the outlaw subs? I'm considering getting a second outlaw to place in another area to get better bass response, but am also considering either replacing it with another sub (possibly Klipsch), or just adding another sub to the outlaw I already have. I've not heard any of the other sub manufacturers (axiom, SVS, Lava) so I don't know how they sound, and im not sure if mixing subs of two different brands is a good idea. Anyway, in a single sub room, between Klipsch and outlaw, what are your thoughts? man, sorry this was so long.... Edited May 31, 2014 by Sb100 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Not adding an outboard amp may be consensus but I am definitely in the adding an amp camp. I also don't think that the RF82II's are limited at all by a huge margin. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) ..., that may be because of how I have my sub set up. I have everything crossed over at 80Hz, and my sub is behind my seating area, which, is possible that it is creating a null that i'm not hearing the full range of audio below 80Hz. When I had my paradigms, I had a paradigm sub at the front of the room, a front firing sub and I liked the sound of it, but due to being in an apartment, and trying to find the best place for my sub, people suggested that I put the sub behind me so i'd get more of the near field bass. I wonder though, is near field bass a good thing or a bad thing? In reading, it appears that bass sound waves are longer than other frequencies, so, having bass that close, would it not cause the audio to reach my ears before the sound has fully "matured"? In other words, would it be better to have the sub further away than closer? Such as putting it on the front wall? I did my sub crawl and, according to what I heard, I got the best bass from the wall behind me, near the corner.... If you are crossing over to a sub, I don't think you are going to benefit from an external amp, but getting a second sub to put up front would be money better spent, imo....Notice I have a front sub and a rear sub and the reason is that I don't have much room up front and when I move the RSW-15 to the back it seemed directional. I also sit 4 to 5 ft away from each sub and it sounds great and they blend with my speakers seamlessly. Good luck. EDIT: If you have an SPL meter see how loud you can comfortably listen to material and then ask yourself do you want it any louder? If so and it starts to distort that is when you should consider an external amp. Edited May 31, 2014 by tkdamerica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) Sorry, double post. Edited June 1, 2014 by willland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeker Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 between the rf7ii and rf82ii i would chose the rf82ii for movies. Music its a toss up. the 7's can take more power yet i still would as well off chose the rf82ii over the rf7ii. i have not used either with any mods. i prefer the 82 over the 7. they sound better to me each with the use of a sub or pair of powered subs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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