ampsandsound Improvement on an already Awesome tube amp

[justinsweber]

The LS came already gone through and with Bobs crossovers... I think AL-3s... The Im not sure where the limits Im hear are... the horn, the stockfish crossover or what not... I love the idea of owning a stocker... esp one I've coveted for so long... that said, it dosnt hold up to a cornscala... at least not for me. (Looks cooler though :-) ).

I have give some thought to upgrades... Daves eliptrac and ALK AP12-400? LS bins and 402 horn :-).... So so so so bad ***. No idea of how it sounds but man does it look cool. Anyone in SoCal have a set of K402s and a passive network they can bring over for a few hours.

LS bins... Daves eliptrac/DE85tn as a two... anyone running it?

[Schu]

In what aspects don't you think it performs Justin... Lower register?

one thing of note is that you are comparing a stocker to a built machine, if you had a fastrack mid and HF section on that LS along with a eminence 15" don't you think there might be a difference?

[Marvel]

if you had a fastrack mid and HF section on that LS along with a eminence 15" don't you think there might be a difference?

To be truthful, the K33 is an Eminence 15.

Bruce

Edited June 13, 2014 by Marvel

[Schu]

Yes, but it's not the eminence in justins CS which was what I was talking about.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Schu

[justinsweber]

Lower registers are great... fast and what I know a LS to do... the highs are hard on my ears.

I do think if I were to make a change... LS bins and Eliptrac on top would be killer. I prefer the 2way cornscala I currently have. (Go up plenty high :-).

But... I love it as a stocker... prob no hot riding for it unless some K402s or K510s, or eliptracs that look like LS tops come a knocking.

Dave has the skills to pull that off for sure, but prob not the time.

I do want to hear the K402... serious, anyone in SoCal have a set I hear.

Edited June 13, 2014 by justinsweber

[Schu]

I've always wondered... does a 402/510 cornwall make any sense? you'd have to make a new solid motor board or lock up the openings some other way, but would a direct radiating LF march as well as a horn loaded LF?

[Deang]

Look at it this way. The more the motor moves, the more distortion you have. A Cornwall only goes about 10 cycles lower - some of what you're hearing are the elevated distortion products. You can double the efficiency and cut distortion roughly in half by horn loading the driver.

The LaScala has a 70Hz horn, and you need two good corners almost as bad as a Klipschorn does. You get 50Hz, but it's a clean 50hz. Some people like clean bass lines and sharp transients, while others like some thump and thunder -- which is not what you're going to get out of a LaScala.

Paul Klipsch shot for flat response, but in my opinion, it cripples some speakers, and the LaScala is one of them. If there is no real bottom, then the top dominates the signature, and the speaker really isn't all that pleasant to listen to.

Small monitors are often deliberately tilted down a bit to bring the bass out. Roy Allison used to do it, and so did Henry Kloss. Speakers like the Dynaco A-10 and the original Old Advent had rapidly falling response after 10kHz. No one ever talked about how these loudspeakers didn't have any highs -- what they talked about was how nice the bass was, and how well balanced they were.

Bob and I are at odds on this. Like PK, he wants faithful reproduction, while I'm more interested in making the speaker sound better. Bob says the speaker is not the place to manipulate things, that the speaker's job is to faithfully reproduce what the amplifier sends it. I, on the other hand, think that if the ear perceives that something is out of balance, and it happens to be the speaker -- fix the speaker. Some fix the issue by adding subs and jacking the bass through the ceiling, or by adding external EQ and boosting and cutting.

Al and I send our adjustable networks out set to -6dB, and most diddle around and then end up back on -6dB. The reason for this is because it sounds better. The bass comes up and the tweeter shines a bit more. I like "living in the midrange" as much as the next guy or gal - but I don't want a hole drilled in my head with it.

I will be using some nice old school capacitors that are a bit lossy, and shaving 3dB off of the midrange. I won't need subs or an equalizer -- and it's going to sound outstanding.

[Deang]

I've always wondered... does a 402/510 cornwall make any sense? you'd have to make a new solid motor board or lock up the openings some other way, but would a direct radiating LF march as well as a horn loaded LF?

I forgot to address the first part of your post.

Those horns require 2" drivers. Those horns are also CD horns, and so response starts falling at around 8kHz. This requires going to active filtering so you can boost the response.

An exception here appears to be the Faital HF200, but I've received mixed comments on the way it sounds.

http://www.critesspeakers.com/faital-hf200-drivers.html

I think I just prefer three ways.

[justinsweber]

After some careful listen Ive come to a conclusion... The LS top hats are going under the knife!

Gone will be the metal K400, K55, K77 and new crossovers AL-3s... all soon to be listed in the garage sale sec.

The top hats will get an eliptrac 400 and a DE400... crossovers will be an oldie but a goodie... the AP12-500.

Dave or I should be able to shoe horn his horn into the top hat... Ill get the looks I love with the sound to match!

[Deang]

Splits are a good candidate for that. I wish you would hold off for a bit though - because I'd like to show you something.

The fact that you're running K-43s isn't helpful either - even less lower end response.

Edited June 13, 2014 by DeanG

[joessportster]

Justin hold off . Look up workaholic, or perfectionist in Websters and you find a pic of Justin, I am not convinced Justin is capable of slowing down

[justinsweber]

I think I can... I think I can :-).

Dean get your Scalas up and running. Did you want to try a stock kenzie for 2 weeks or wet your wistle with the cans amp?

[minermark]

Ampsandsound will go down in audio history as being in the upper class of audio at it's finest, been of two other forums and guy's there are referring guys here, to study us and learn I suppose, but the name ampsandsound come up all the time.

[Schu]

justin... are you using Shannons boards?

[justinsweber]

Super kind... The reality is that I’m a state employed social worker that likes to build stuff a lot. As such I’ve found a lot of help on the forms and outside to make my desires happen.

I’d like to think of myself as good general contractor... completely not an expert in anything other than forensic or emergency room mental health. For audio, I like simple understandable stuff... I think most of us her do.

The almost all the amps I build employ circuits not of my own design… but I’ve taken the time with the designer to get from these circuits to do what we needed… simple/ predictable/ rebuildable deigns.

We have so many good resources on the forum, from horns or crossovers there is a glut of knowledge. I think the more we try to figure stuff out, the more we stumble too. I know will be including ground lift switches after having 2 customers have issues. Painful as growth is, ultimately its good stuff. How many crappy cabs have all of us made before building 1 that was plum and had the right dimensions to sound great… how many bad horns/ bad cuts has Dave had to eat… I hate crossovers… black magic to me… yet Bob, Al and Dean make them dance… again I bet with the burnt fingers along the way.

[Schu]

I love a humble man... nicely said Justin. I wish I was still in the hills of Orange so I could come by and hand out and see your magic in person.

[justinsweber]

Shannons are used for several and then I outsourced 2 to a good buddy.

Shannon has great designs... I just tweak them... with his consultation of course. (Completely not a fan of adjustable anything) The rest is parts selection and build quality.

Though I generally will do initial wiring, my tech is bar none... He does simply incredible final wiring and testing... Then I listen, burn-in and retest as needed.

I’ve held to the idea that all parts should be expected to still be purchasable in 20 years... No ICs and only through hole. I’ve not been a capacitor geek, but have seen and heard some great results from limited production caps. Still trying to gage wheatear my customers will want… or want to chose their own.

I have been really jonesing to build a PAS3 on a single PCB.

I think the PAS3 without tone controls and with updated power supply (See tubes for pro) is one of the best sounding Ive ever had.

[CECAA850]

Justin, stubbing ones toes in a start up business is completely normal and expected. It's how you handle those stumbles that will ultimately set you apart from the pack.

[Marvel]

Lower registers are great... fast and what I know a LS to do... the highs are hard on my ears. ...

After some careful listen Ive come to a conclusion... The LS top hats are going under the knife!

Gone will be the metal K400, K55, K77 and new crossovers AL-3s... all soon to be listed in the garage sale sec.

What is about certainly points to below...

Al and I send our adjustable networks out set to -6dB, and most diddle around and then end up back on -6dB. The reason for this is because it sounds better. The bass comes up and the tweeter shines a bit more. I like "living in the midrange" as much as the next guy or gal - but I don't want a hole drilled in my head with it.

Once I used a constant impedance network and dropped the mids down on my LS, the balance evened out a LOT. Justin, listen to Dean and hold off a bit. If you are using tubes, you really need to get some constant impedance networks in your LS. You will be amazed.

Bruce

[justinsweber]

We use many of his designs which we have worked with him to simplify.

That said, he designs are fantastic.