My New Turntable

[joshnich]

I just received notice that my new turntable is finished and will be on it’s way across the Atlantic. Very much looking forward to the arrival!

I have always thought that the idler drive intuitively made a lot of sense.

I have been spending a bit of time on the Lenco Heaven website with the idea that I would refurbish a Lenco as project. Along the way I discovered Peter Reinder who machines and builds new bearings and top plates that are the basis for many high end rebuilds in the Lenco DIY community. Turns out that he also builds complete turntables using the basic guts of old Lencos. Doing my research it became clear that rebuilding a Lenco to the standard that would compete with my current set up was well beyond my skill set. I contacted Peter and the next thing I know he’s building one for me!

Reviews of his turntables can be found here

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/lenco2/1.html

http://www.stereophile.com/content/listening-126

This is kind of a back to the future for me. In the 70s I owned a Lenco and I was always amazed that I thought records on my Lenco sounded better when compared to much pricier options. I never gave it much thought as to why that would be the case. Shoot I really didn’t know what an idler drive was!

Once it arrives and I get it dialed in I will certainly post my impressions.

[Schu]

I'm a big fan of lenco's... I am looking for one myself, I just have a hard time justifying the price for the one speed I would use it for... 78rpm. maybe a transcription is in my future.

congrates by the way. complete review when you get it please.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Schu

[nu2toobs]

Lenco's are great when installed in a high mass plinth. Is yours slate? If it is, congratulations! If it isn't, still congratulations, they're very nice and have a great dynamic punch to them.

[joshnich]

The plinth is actually corian. The biggest issue with lenco 's and why many believe that a high mass plinth is the solution, is that the original top plate is a little flimsy. The secret sauce of this TT is a stainless steel top plate that in addition to isolating the high torque motor , provides a much more solid base for a rebuilt bearing.

J

[joshnich]

I will use my Origin Live Encounter MK3 which is currently mounted on my Clearaudio. The cartidge I will be using is a Shelter 5000. I am sure I will mess around and mount my Zu denon 103R for a spin as well.

J

[Schu]

do you make any changes to your system when changing out those two carts?

the mV are very different between them.

[jorjen]

Thanks alot Josh, sheeesh! Now you have ME thinking.

If I get serious, can I pop up your way to see and hear yours first?

[Mallette]

I remain curious as to the real or perceived value of idler drive. Of course, I grew up with it both in home audio as well as in radio work, but was delighted to see the south side of it. I still cannot see how there can be an advantage in transferring all the motor issues through a small wheel physically to the platter. I remain a belt drive type, and own a couple of direct drives.

I am intensely curious as to how something so counter-intuitive can apparently work so well for many.

Dave

[joshnich]

Thanks alot Josh, sheeesh! Now you have ME thinking.

If I get serious, can I pop up your way to see and hear yours first?

I would love to have you over when I get it.. I'm heading out on vacation so I asked peter to wait on the shipping. When I get it dialed in we will set something up.

J

[joshnich]

I remain curious as to the real or perceived value of idler drive. Of course, I grew up with it both in home audio as well as in radio work, but was delighted to see the south side of it. I still cannot see how there can be an advantage in transferring all the motor issues through a small wheel physically to the platter. I remain a belt drive type, and own a couple of direct drives.

I am intensely curious as to how something so counter-intuitive can apparently work so well for many.

Dave

This is what makes the world go around. To me the idler drive intuitively makes way more sense than the belt or direct. Having a high torque motor "drive " the platter rather than a belt drive pull it around, intuitively makes more sense to me.

I have owned a thorens td 124 and was never able to eliminate the rumble - which is an issue for idler drive. Additionally the thorens is a little persnickety needing a fair amount of effort to get it dialed in.

I have always thought the lenco approach to an idle drive made way more sense. It's simpler and in need of less fiddling.

Peter Reinders has build a top plate that isolates the motor so that one gets all the benefits of the idler drive without the shortcomings.

I'm not sure what everyone thinks of high end audio . Com and mr Salvatore. But he has declared a rebuilt lenco as the best TT he has ever heard and it replaced the forsell in his system. He is speaking of a lenco built by a different restorer / modernizer but the TT he speaks of has similar work done as the one I have purchased.

[Schu]

it's all about the torque.

make sure to take plenty of pictures when she comes in

[LarryC]

It's the only drive which simultaneously turns, stabilizes and damps the platter

Well, OK -- how is that a plus?

Intuitively, in my Basis TT, the platter is stabilized by a dual spindle bearing, one above the platter's center of gravity and one in the bearing well, below it (I don't think there's much of an audible difference from the bearings in other top Basis TT's.), on top of which Basis bearing tolerances are exceptional. The platter is damped by being made of an inert acrylic, and made still weightier by heavy brass plugs inserted from below.

I also gather that the belt minimizes motor vibration and flutter by filtering it out between the motor and the platter. Anyway, it seems to work very well. I would have to hear the actual difference made by a rim drive, which would seem to me to have more potential for transmitting unfiltered vibration and noise.

Edited June 15, 2014 by LarryC

[Mallette]

I expect only one thing from a turntable: That I not hear it. I have found that in a few over the years and not all expensive. Most cost effective TT ever, IMHO, was the Stanton Gyropoise of the late 70s. 99.00 with a permanently premounted 681 cartridge. The TT was suspended by opposing magnets and direct driven. However, very modest construction (not surprising at the price) and I suspect few have survived.

I can see that any method CAN be successful if you throw enough money at it. Certainly, as was mentioned, I recall rumble with idler drive. Rumble was probably that which we hated most at the time and accounts for why some of us "ol farts" aren't terribly receptive to idler drive. Lenco was out of my price range at the time so never had one. Same with upper end Duals. Mostly Garrard at the time, as in Zero 100. Decent table.

However, it was direct drive for years, then belt drive for me. I hear nothing I can attribute to my VPI, and that is all I ask.

Dave

[joessportster]

I expect only one thing from a turntable: That I not hear it. I have found that in a few over the years and not all expensive. Most cost effective TT ever, IMHO, was the Stanton Gyropoise of the late 70s. 99.00 with a permanently premounted 681 cartridge. The TT was suspended by opposing magnets and direct driven. However, very modest construction (not surprising at the price) and I suspect few have survived.

I can see that any method CAN be successful if you throw enough money at it. Certainly, as was mentioned, I recall rumble with idler drive. Rumble was probably that which we hated most at the time and accounts for why some of us "ol farts" aren't terribly receptive to idler drive. Lenco was out of my price range at the time so never had one. Same with upper end Duals. Mostly Garrard at the time, as in Zero 100. Decent table.

However, it was direct drive for years, then belt drive for me. I hear nothing I can attribute to my VPI, and that is all I ask.

Dave

Good point Dave, I Believe most better tables today accomplish this very well regardless of drive

Mark how are we figuring that Lenco rim drive uses fewer parts ? Considering all the linkage used to move the drive wheel for contact to the platter.....I would have thought a belt drive would use fewer parts, and direct drive even less parts

[LarryC]

Larry, I wasn't making a comparison of specific product brand implementations. I was commenting on the engineering rationale for pursuing an idler drive. Dave seemed to be asking, 'why would anyone do this?' I was describing an engineering goal - which would be to A) use the least amount of material; the fewest parts; C) lowest cost to solve the problem. The idler wheel theoretically can meet A, B and C.

And I was making differing points by illustrating how a different brand makes it work their way. I've not heard a rim drive, however.

[LarryC]

Did you mean something else when you asked me, "how is that a plus?" I must have misunderstood you. My apology

No apology is warranted, of course, but when you said that drive is the only one that does all of turning the platter while stabilizing and damping it at the same time, I simply wasn't clear on how that is better than a combination of a stable bearing and well, vibration and noise filtering by a belt, and inertia from a very heavy platter-brass combination, all seemingly to be engineered to a fare-thee-well by the manufacturer. I probably didn't need to say all that about the particular brand.

[jorjen]

Thanks alot Josh, sheeesh! Now you have ME thinking.

If I get serious, can I pop up your way to see and hear yours first?

I would love to have you over when I get it.. I'm heading out on vacation so I asked peter to wait on the shipping. When I get it dialed in we will set something up.

J

Sounds good Josh!

Did you go with the bearing upgrade?

[Mallette]

A good ideal, but unfortunately it is an impossible one

You are off engineering and into metaphysics. It is not possible for you to know what I hear, and vice versa. I hear nothing from records played on my TT that can be attributed to the TT. Therefore, that goal is achieved. However, I accept that others have trained themselves to hear things in power cables, interconnects and such that a real enough to them.

I listen to music, not things. I can certainly tell when something is affecting the music and what that is. Once fixed, I do not analyze further for minute issues that I would otherwise not hear. I realized one time that I was able to note the position of a chair in the room.

I promptly quit listening for such things as that way lies insanity.

Dave

[NOSValves]

A good ideal, but unfortunately it is an impossible one

You are off engineering and into metaphysics. It is not possible for you to know what I hear, and vice versa. I hear nothing from records played on my TT that can be attributed to the TT. Therefore, that goal is achieved. However, I accept that others have trained themselves to hear things in power cables, interconnects and such that a real enough to them.

I listen to music, not things. I can certainly tell when something is affecting the music and what that is. Once fixed, I do not analyze further for minute issues that I would otherwise not hear. I realized one time that I was able to note the position of a chair in the room.

I promptly quit listening for such things as that way lies insanity.

Dave

I'm laughing very hard......Very sensible post.

Josh sounds like your having fun! Enjoy the ride! I believe the Parrott uses a rebuilt Lenco and absolutely loves it. I'll call him later today and get the details.

Edited June 16, 2014 by NOSValves

[joessportster]

I want to know what that chair was saying