Stevenarrow Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Hello, After a few weeks of research and a few suggestions from forum experts, I have started to plan out my summer speaker build project. My current plan is to build a Belle Klipsch bass section on a ported riser with a wide range driver on top. I settled on the Belle over the LaScala due to existing room conditions. I just can't fit the 24"x24" foot print on my long wall but the 18"x30" Belle fits nicely. I've read that performance between the two is nearly identical... I should mention I live in a 600 soft apartment in Vancouver: real-estate prices and physics prevent me from exploring true bass horns. The woofer will be the Cast Frame Crites model I currently own (to keep budget down). I'm thinking the box will be either birch or white oak with cane grills. The Bass horn will be separate from the upper driver so that I can update horns as I gain more experience with horn/driver combos. I love this photo: (anyone know what type of veneer/finish this is...?) The upper section is still a little up in the air. The crossover point will have to be above 400Hz. Based on calculations Claude did early, I should be able to just hit 500Hz with the cast woofer in the Belle horn. Currently I am considering the B&C DE85TN from ALK or the Faital HF200 from Bob for the upper driver. Both of these are in my current budge for this project. I am also considering the Eliptrac 400 horn, but I would be open to a DIY version that I could build and veneer to match. I have also been reading a ton about the K402 horn; I am not opposed to something that big if the performance is there... again, I'd love to build one to match finish and to show off a bit... I should also state that I am not very technical/experienced when it comes to matching horns/drivers/XOs. I am really going off the expertise and experience I have found on-line. Please chime in if you think I can hit a better performance mark based on my posts and a reasonable budget. In exchange I plan to post a ton of build photos and questions for others to follow or laugh at, whatever... I should be able to start building the dog house in the next couple weeks. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 (edited) My god.... that's thats a beautifully perfect Belle. Did I read you correctly... 600sqft and Belles? That will saturate you for sure, you will love them. Edited June 18, 2014 by Schu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnr Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Wow, that sure is an elegant combo...Gorgeous! Is that natural birch, or a very light stain tint? I want some. Keep us posted on your progress. Where are you getting your cane grill material? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevenarrow Posted June 18, 2014 Author Share Posted June 18, 2014 Did I read you correctly... 600sqft and Belles? That will saturate you for sure, you will love them. Yup, Vancouver living... I've been living with Cornscalas for a while so I'm used to big boxes. The Belles will actually be a little smaller... Currently running a small-ish pair of Tannoy 12" monitors. Love the cohesion but there is no dynamics compared to the larger horns. I don't really need nor can I accommodate bass below 40Hz in my space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) Re the veneer on the Belle. The pattern and color reminds me of cherry. I built one Bartley collection piece, a basin stand, which was solid cherry. There are lots of variations. https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A0LEViW8NKJTqx8Axw8PxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTBsa3ZzMnBvBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--?_adv_prop=image&fr=yhs-att-att_001&va=cherry+veneer+sheets&hspart=att&hsimp=yhs-att_001 Raw, new cherry is tan and fairly bland. Over time, i.e. several years, it oxidizes to a rust color which is more distinctive. In commercial furniture it is often stained or caustic lye is used to force the surface to a rust-color. You sometimes see solid pieces where the heartwood remains pale. At least at one time in Indy there is a little setting of two Belle (hmmm, maybe just one), as in the picture, on either side of table and lamp with two stuffed chairs. IIRC. There is picture someplace out there. Maybe one of our moderators can say if the setting is still there. WMcD Edited June 19, 2014 by William F. Gil McDermott 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 My vote is Raw Cherry, but that grill isn't what I would call Cane... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivervalleymgb Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) My Belles had camel grill cloths. Darker than cane. Edited June 19, 2014 by Rivervalleymgb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I wish I could do wood working... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevenarrow Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 I wish I could do wood working... me too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I have also been reading a ton about the K402 horn; I am not opposed to something that big if the performance is there... again, I'd love to build one to match finish and to show off a bit... Read up (if you haven't) on the K510..."the little horn that could" The 402 while worth the brags you hear about it....is a monster. The 510 sounds (to me) significiantly similar (especially the more on axis you are) and is smaller/cheaper. The 510 could fit inside the standard Belle top housing and you'd never know unless you looked or noticed the shadow of just one horn behind the grill instead of two. My .02 Good luck with the project!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckAb3 Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I wish I could do wood working. That will be one georgeous speaker. Wish I had your skills. Just one question .... why did you decide on a 2-way design? Just curious since Belles were 3-way. I know a lot of folks seem to prefer 2-way. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevenarrow Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 Read up (if you haven't) on the K510..."the little horn that could" I have also been reading a ton about the K402 horn; I am not opposed to something that big if the performance is there... again, I'd love to build one to match finish and to show off a bit The 402 while worth the brags you hear about it....is a monster. The 510 sounds (to me) significiantly similar (especially the more on axis you are) and is smaller/cheaper. The 510 could fit inside the standard Belle top housing and you'd never know unless you looked or noticed the shadow of just one horn behind the grill instead of two. My .02 Good luck with the project!! I've read a ton on the 510 and the 402. I am leaning towards a hybrid design that may not require building the upper housing. First things first is to build the bass horn. Knowing my history of change and experiment, it may serve me better to build a system that I can swap drivers and horns in and out of, rather than trying to cram the components into a set size. ...did I mention I live by myself and my hifi kinda dominates the apartment... big horns aren't a big deal. Ideally I can eventually build and veneer my own. Big sound: big style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevenarrow Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 I wish I could do wood working.That will be one georgeous speaker. Wish I had your skills. Just one question .... why did you decide on a 2-way design? Just curious since Belles were 3-way. I know a lot of folks seem to prefer 2-way. Thanks. Time alignment, dynamics and cohesion of sound is a big plus for me. I can take or leave the top and bottom octaves. It's all a trade off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arash Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) B&C DE85TN is not that linear. http://bcspeakers.s3.amazonaws.com/2013/05/31/13/09/51/7/file Edited June 22, 2014 by Arash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjptkd Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I know all the "true" horn fans love the two-way design. To be honest (and fair) I've never heard any of the larger two way designs but all the ones I have heard (KG line, CF-4's and tons of the bookshelves including RB-75's & 5's) could not hold a candle to the inner detail and clarity of the three way speakers such as my Chorus II's. On their own (two-ways) they sound great and I could easily live with any of them but do a side by side with a three way and you realize just how much you are missing. This of course is just my own personal experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevenarrow Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share Posted June 22, 2014 B&C DE85TN is not that linear. http://bcspeakers.s3.amazonaws.com/2013/05/31/13/09/51/7/file Thanks for this. The B&C was the ALK suggestion. I would love to AB possible drivers, but I do not have that type of access. That's what this thread is for: figuring the best components based on other's experience. I know all the "true" horn fans love the two-way design. To be honest (and fair) I've never heard any of the larger two way designs but all the ones I have heard (KG line, CF-4's and tons of the bookshelves including RB-75's & 5's) could not hold a candle to the inner detail and clarity of the three way speakers such as my Chorus II's. On their own (two-ways) they sound great and I could easily live with any of them but do a side by side with a three way and you realize just how much you are missing. This of course is just my own personal experience. I will be building the system to be a kit-of-parts. That's the main reason why I probably won't build the upper enclosure. I want this to be a set-up I can easily move horns and drivers in and out of... I already have a decent 3-way system with Bob's tweeter. I plan on incorporating some way to swap top ends. This is a hobby after all, so moving stuff around is all part of the learning experience and its kinda fun... I dig the look of raw horns and XOs sitting on top of the folded sections... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arash Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 B&C DE85TN is not that linear. http://bcspeakers.s3.amazonaws.com/2013/05/31/13/09/51/7/file Thanks for this. The B&C was the ALK suggestion. I would love to AB possible drivers, but I do not have that type of access. That's what this thread is for: figuring the best components based on other's experience. I know Faital Pro is a new boy in the block but HF200 and HF142 CDs are outstanding-performers considering price. B&C is also a great company, I like DCM-50 even more than some TADs but this model simply is not linear, at least on the paper. maybe ALK suggested it as a midrage but this compressor is not linear in any region! those hums and dips will kill me instantly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevenarrow Posted June 24, 2014 Author Share Posted June 24, 2014 Well, shop time starts next month. I've been doing a little drawing to get a sense of the build. Currently I am thinking one small modification to the original plans: I removed the 90° step-edge at the front of the doghouse where the angled panel meets the front most wood panel. I figure that a mitred edge in that location would look more 'finished' and a little more modern. Also, I plan on using 1" (maybe 1.25") material for the outer box. I would like add stiffness and avoid 'visible' braces. I think I will brace the inside of the dog house for stiffness. Currently I am leaning towards no grills on the horn openings. With the ability to do a high end white oak finish over all, I'd prefer to see the wood grain all the way back: the depth looks good. Adding a nice soft grill to the optional bass reflex riser maintains the 'look' I'm going for... With the riser, it kinda looks like a stock Belle on it's head... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevenarrow Posted June 26, 2014 Author Share Posted June 26, 2014 (edited) I have also been reading a ton about the K402 horn; I am not opposed to something that big if the performance is there... again, I'd love to build one to match finish and to show off a bit... Read up (if you haven't) on the K510..."the little horn that could" The 402 while worth the brags you hear about it....is a monster. The 510 sounds (to me) significiantly similar (especially the more on axis you are) and is smaller/cheaper. The 510 could fit inside the standard Belle top housing and you'd never know unless you looked or noticed the shadow of just one horn behind the grill instead of two. My .02 Good luck with the project!! Would the Faital Pro HF140 fit well with the K510? Also, what is the low cut off for the K510...? Edited July 3, 2014 by Stevenarrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevenarrow Posted July 3, 2014 Author Share Posted July 3, 2014 Hello, I have been chatting with Klipsch a bit and they have quoted me a couple options... I could really use an experience opinion if it is out there... I am considering the K510 over the Belle horn. I believe I can cross these together at 450-500Hz (confirm?) I would like to buy ALK's AP12-500 (gentle slope 500Hz XO). Klipsch is offering the horn on its own or with the B&C driver (DE-75-8P). Is the B&C a good match for the Belle and XO point? The Faital HF140 is a less expensive option (is it better?). Thanks again. The build starts in a week! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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