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Why horn-loaded loudspeakers are subject to design tradeoffs


Chris A

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There seems to be pent-up demand to discuss this topic but a reticence for the topic's greatest proponents to hit the "Start New Topic" button.

This thread is devoted to the discussion of horn-loading acoustic drivers, the tradeoffs involved, and the juicy subject of horn-loading efficiency as related to low modulation distortion.

Also note that there are newly posted unpublished articles/papers by PWK on these subjects by mikebse2a3 (thanks MIke...once again!) that would likely make good resources for discussion/argument.

DeanG, John Warren, and Gil: let 'er rip!

Chris

Edited by Chris A
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This is a "forum". You might want to look up the word. Threads are "open" to all. No one asked for "closed" FAQs so you could pontificate, nor are you a moderator to dictate to others what can and cannot be said - where and when. You sure are full of yourself.

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After running stacked La Scalas, I can attest to the fact there are other speakers in the world that give and take, everyone is fully aware La Scalas are of the Folded design, however going the route iv gone in the last month, there is something to be said about Direct Raidiators.

Currently im running a "Push/Pull" design and just about have the crossovers dialed in.

The one thing this experiment has taught me is keep an open mind as to sound reproduction.

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Thank you Chris A for starting this. I did not take the move by Chris to be an effort build a soap box for himself at all.

Rather, in another thread there was a request for discussion of why horns subjectively sound good. But then there was an additional comment generally requesting that the discussion not be technical. My response was that PWK's work was to show that there were technical reasons for subjective performance. Hopefully audio enjoyment is the handmaiden of performance which is the handmaiden of engineering.

Also, I like the idea of a dedicated thread. Sometimes, often, discussions get hijacked or diffused.

WMcD

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I'll start out the discussion by pointing out design issues of the driver. We can't discuss horns without the driver.

In my view, the seminal paper is by DB Don Keele. http://xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/PDF/Keele%20(1977-05%20AES%20Preprint)%20-%20LF%20Horn%20Design%20Using%20TS%20Paras.pdf

There was a comment in a different thread by a chap saying or implying that the high frequency of a horn is unlimited but for losses due to folding of the horn and we had failed to account for such (or at least that is my read).

Let me point out Don's very good graph which shows roll off of the driver at the high end by three different mechanisms. These can be discussed further of course including what to do about it. There is also a roll off at the bottom end too . Likewise it can be the subject of further discussion

Again, the point is that we have to discuss the limitations of the driver and related mechanisms.

WMcD

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I think its time all the quasi-techno engineers build something better. Time alignment, peaky cycle ranges, yeah i guess my K-horns have them. No low end with my LaScalas's, got that issue too. Just build a horn cab close to same size, same good looks and better performance for the K and L and then we will have something. Until then....

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Just build a horn cab close to same size, same good looks and better performance for the K and L and then we will have something.
Physics only allows for so much, so it gets hard when the box stays close to the same size.

I loved my LS, and am really itching to get the empty LS cabs I currently have back up and working. However, I'm doing the bass porting on these to see how well it works. I am rather confident that I will be satisfied with the extra work this entails to finish them.

Bruce

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I think its time all the quasi-techno engineers build something better. Time alignment, peaky cycle ranges, yeah i guess my K-horns have them. No low end with my LaScalas's, got that issue too. Just build a horn cab close to same size, same good looks and better performance for the K and L and then we will have something. Until then....

Quasi-techno?

I was hoping the Jubilee was the "something better." But, maybe not. In this day of subwoofers, I think the LaScala goes down far enough, if one has a good horn loaded sub. If Klipsch builds something better than the Khorn, I hope it is a new High Hat with mid and tweet, that will look good sitting on my Khorn bass bins. I'm satisfied with Khorn bass, if one uses a sub as well, but I'd like to replace my DR sub with a nice snappy horn loaded one ... waiting for the dust to settle.

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I think its time all the quasi-techno engineers build something better. Time alignment, peaky cycle ranges, yeah i guess my K-horns have them. No low end with my LaScalas's, got that issue too. Just build a horn cab close to same size, same good looks and better performance for the K and L and then we will have something. Until then....

I think it's called a Jubilee! Behaves like a LaScala in 1/2 space and a Khorn in the corner.

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Just build a horn cab close to same size, same good looks and better performance for the K and L and then we will have something.
Physics only allows for so much, so it gets hard when the box stays close to the same size.

I loved my LS, and am really itching to get the empty LS cabs I currently have back up and working. However, I'm doing the bass porting on these to see how well it works. I am rather confident that I will be satisfied with the extra work this entails to finish them.

Bruce

Oh, I get the difficulty in it all. Its why I can make my statement so easily. Someone build a better mouse trap than PWK or put a sock in it :)

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I think its time all the quasi-techno engineers build something better. Time alignment, peaky cycle ranges, yeah i guess my K-horns have them. No low end with my LaScalas's, got that issue too. Just build a horn cab close to same size, same good looks and better performance for the K and L and then we will have something. Until then....

I think it's called a Jubilee! Behaves like a LaScala in 1/2 space and a Khorn in the corner.

I would love to hear some Jubs, but they have had their share of pokes on here as well.

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I think its time all the quasi-techno engineers build something better. Time alignment, peaky cycle ranges, yeah i guess my K-horns have them. No low end with my LaScalas's, got that issue too. Just build a horn cab close to same size, same good looks and better performance for the K and L and then we will have something. Until then....

Quasi-techno?

I was hoping the Jubilee was the "something better." But, maybe not. In this day of subwoofers, I think the LaScala goes down far enough, if one has a good horn loaded sub. If Klipsch builds something better than the Khorn, I hope it is a new High Hat with mid and tweet, that will look good sitting on my Khorn bass bins. I'm satisfied with Khorn bass, if one uses a sub as well, but I'd like to replace my DR sub with a nice snappy horn loaded one ... waiting for the dust to settle.

My statement was not directed as in "Klipsch Corp" to build something new, even though I would love to see what the crew could come up with. I was directing it towards all the Math geniuses to put all these flaws on a note pad and build something similar with none of them. It AINT happening.

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I think its time all the quasi-techno engineers build something better. Time alignment, peaky cycle ranges, yeah i guess my K-horns have them. No low end with my LaScalas's, got that issue too. Just build a horn cab close to same size, same good looks and better performance for the K and L and then we will have something. Until then....

I think it's called a Jubilee! Behaves like a LaScala in 1/2 space and a Khorn in the corner.

I would love to hear some Jubs, but they have had their share of pokes on here as well.

The Jubilee has an odd position. 1) It is a very good sounding system 2) it is large, 3 it typically comes with little in the way of cosmetics, and 4) people who have never heard them love to criticize them. This last point is critical.

I have owned several Klipsch systems, including Cornwalls and Klipschorns. I have also owned other interesting systems (Martin-Logan, Magnepan, Vandersteen, Altec, JBL etc. The Jubilees remain the best. Hands down best. Again. let's be clear, this is from someone who actually has heard them.

I think the engineers at Klipsch did a surpisingly good job on the Klipsch Jubilee. I am fortunate to own a set.

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I think its time all the quasi-techno engineers build something better. Time alignment, peaky cycle ranges, yeah i guess my K-horns have them. No low end with my LaScalas's, got that issue too. Just build a horn cab close to same size, same good looks and better performance for the K and L and then we will have something. Until then....
Want something better than a La Scala? Take a Danley SH46 and park it on top of a Bill Fitzmaurice DR280. Drive the pair of them with a DEQX.

Want something better than a K-Horn? Try a Danley J1.

Either way, looks and size are completely out the window. Always has been where horns are concerned. The Klipsch home product struck that fine line between performance and cohabit-ability.

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