NOSValves Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Specs, Specs, Specs....the spec's are better so it has to be better.....you wouldn't know quality sound if it came up a slapped you in both ears at once.Lighten up. You are responding in kind. Sheesh... Sorry nope....when attacked I attack back always have and always will... geezzz you ought to know me by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Something about Craig and me pimping each other's products - I read it, but can't remember where I saw it. I'd like to respond to that outlandish accusation : ) Show me where. Please use a thread or post that isn't on page 80-something or older. Yea Dean I thought that comment was so absurd it wasn't worth replying to....we rarely talk about each other unless asked in private. If you want to talk about shilling much of that does go on here, but its not us two doing it for each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 geezzz you ought to know me by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 What exactly is the point of what your postings in here? They are gear heads that this hobby really has very little to do with music or the love of it... plenty of folks are in this for all kinds of reasons...some are what I call the techno babble crowd...they spend more time reading specs and debating about the importance of them then they do listening to music.. If you didn't get my point I don't think any more explanations will help. So I guess by your description PWK fits into the "gear heads" and "techno babble crowd" since he spent a lifetime measuring his loudspeakers and used those tests with listening tests to improve his designs....... I learned long ago specifications and techno babble that goes with them are completely useless in this hobby! Sure you want good specs but they will tell you zero about what something will sound like regardless of the type of gear were talking about. Why would you want good specifications if they are "completely useless" and "they will tell you zero about what something will sound like" ....? miketn You really can be an obnoxious A-hole but hey I've known that for years..... Let me repeat myself and please do not take what I say out on context again.... SPECIFICATIONS tell you ABSOLUTELY nothing about how something will sound....IF THEY DID the hobby would be very boring and we wouldn't have a thing to debate. We would all simply go down to the local box store and all buy the EXACT same thing. Two of the same types of devices can have specifications that are dead nuts identical and sound completely different. So putting too much emphasis on specifications and tests is a road to disappointment.... Do you really think Paul Klipsch or any audio designer worth a shite really designs by specification alone.... if Paul Klipsch did then why not use the drivers with best specifications available in his speakers? Hell look at the POS driver is in the infamous Jubilee... that thing is not even remotely the best driver for that horn specification wise! THEY USE the most important piece of test gear available as the final judge, yup those good old reliable ears...problem is many around here don't have them...especially the techno babble crowd. I tell you what I've sat back and read on the side lines around here for a long time now while painfully watching a good number of boneheads lead the crowd in here to total ear bleed....for some reason these days I'm just sick of reading the total Bullshit spewed around here.. The techo babble bunch needs to head to the ear doctor and get a check up the damage has to be severe... I guess if you don't have anything better to say then you can resort to name calling..... You really need to go back and read what you have been posting Craig..........I took nothing out of context so sorry if you don't like it but they are your own words in exactly the context you posted them in. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 I see XO upgrad and EQ a little different. The upgrade replaces cheap, worn out , or improved design of the xo in the speaker and will change the sound. EQ is used to tailor the sound due to the room, speaker location, ect. and will change the sound. There is no reason that both can't be used synergistically. E ither will improve the sound in the room and both used together is best since most of us don't have a perfect acoustically designed room. The old notion of not EQ'ing the mains in 2 ch. systems, is just old. Here is a pretty obvious pic to that fact!!! My room before and after a little acoustic treatment and eq.... pretty much a night a day difference!!! Excellent example miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 No you EQ it or add more garbage in the path to fix it.....hate to tell you dude that ain't fixing shite..... Then why does it sound better after putting "more garbage" in the "path"? Hate to tell you, dude, but you're clueless. Yea okay start the insults and see where it gets you. You are definitely in the boneheaded techo babble anal retentive crowd... Specs, Specs, Specs....the spec's are better so it has to be better.....you wouldn't know quality sound if it came up a slapped you in both ears at once. Holy cow thats mean . Very unnecessary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 (edited) Its crazy how I can look up too some of the people on here and then boom a few posts and its a 180. Calling people a.. holes and attaching them needs to stop please. Totally over the line. I would expect this from avs but not here. Edited August 4, 2014 by reference_head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Full Range Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 My 2 cents on this subject Measurements are necessary and I believe invaluable in raw data to get one to the final result quicker It measures the htz parameters thank you very much However the data can be flawed when one tries to set a preferred sound signature (EQ) in a room only with measurements Many things can corrupt that measurement The worst offender is the software - The modelling data assumes to much or not enough - of what an ear can and can't do Then there is the room dynamics Then the persons musical taste preference and how one actually listens to music And last but not least the marriage of all the components used Not withstanding that - what one person likes another may not - ( similar to food ) The ear in conjunction with the other senses have the last say to ones individual preference 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 What exactly is the point of what your postings in here? They are gear heads that this hobby really has very little to do with music or the love of it... plenty of folks are in this for all kinds of reasons...some are what I call the techno babble crowd...they spend more time reading specs and debating about the importance of them then they do listening to music.. If you didn't get my point I don't think any more explanations will help. So I guess by your description PWK fits into the "gear heads" and "techno babble crowd" since he spent a lifetime measuring his loudspeakers and used those tests with listening tests to improve his designs....... I learned long ago specifications and techno babble that goes with them are completely useless in this hobby! Sure you want good specs but they will tell you zero about what something will sound like regardless of the type of gear were talking about. Why would you want good specifications if they are "completely useless" and "they will tell you zero about what something will sound like" ....? miketn You really can be an obnoxious A-hole but hey I've known that for years..... Let me repeat myself and please do not take what I say out on context again.... SPECIFICATIONS tell you ABSOLUTELY nothing about how something will sound....IF THEY DID the hobby would be very boring and we wouldn't have a thing to debate. We would all simply go down to the local box store and all buy the EXACT same thing. Two of the same types of devices can have specifications that are dead nuts identical and sound completely different. So putting too much emphasis on specifications and tests is a road to disappointment.... Do you really think Paul Klipsch or any audio designer worth a shite really designs by specification alone.... if Paul Klipsch did then why not use the drivers with best specifications available in his speakers? Hell look at the POS driver is in the infamous Jubilee... that thing is not even remotely the best driver for that horn specification wise! THEY USE the most important piece of test gear available as the final judge, yup those good old reliable ears...problem is many around here don't have them...especially the techno babble crowd. I tell you what I've sat back and read on the side lines around here for a long time now while painfully watching a good number of boneheads lead the crowd in here to total ear bleed....for some reason these days I'm just sick of reading the total Bullshit spewed around here.. The techo babble bunch needs to head to the ear doctor and get a check up the damage has to be severe... I guess if you don't have anything better to say then you can resort to name calling..... You really need to go back and read what you have been posting Craig..........I took nothing out of context so sorry if you don't like it but they are your own words in exactly the context you posted them in. miketn you indeed took what I posted completely out of context...insulting someone politely is no different then just calling a spade a spade. One takes balls and other takes being a spineless wimp... you figure out which camp you belong in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 My 2 cents on this subject Measurements are necessary and I believe invaluable in raw data to get one to the final result quicker It measures the htz parameters thank you very much However the data can be flawed when one tries to set a preferred sound signature (EQ) in a room only with measurements Many things can corrupt that measurement The worst offender is the software - The modelling data assumes to much or not enough - of what an ear can and can't do Then there is the room dynamics Then the persons musical taste preference and how one actually listens to music And last but not least the marriage of all the components used Not withstanding that - what one person likes another may not - ( similar to food ) The ear in conjunction with the other senses have the last say to ones individual preference Nice reasonable post.... I use all kinds of measurements and tests on everything I do but in the end the EARS rule...in the end once you have developed the EARS the test equipment is less and less useful except to get you to a baseline of raw performance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 You really can be an obnoxious A-hole but hey I've known that for years..... I didn't see anything obnoxious about his post other than the fact he was disagreeing with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 I see XO upgrad and EQ a little different. The upgrade replaces cheap, worn out , or improved design of the xo in the speaker and will change the sound. EQ is used to tailor the sound due to the room, speaker location, ect. and will change the sound. There is no reason that both can't be used synergistically. E ither will improve the sound in the room and both used together is best since most of us don't have a perfect acoustically designed room. The old notion of not EQ'ing the mains in 2 ch. systems, is just old. Here is a pretty obvious pic to that fact!!! My room before and after a little acoustic treatment and eq.... pretty much a night a day difference!!! Excellent example miketn I'd imagine from the graph alone you would deem his system to be all it could be.............no offense to the poster of the graph intended........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 I'd imagine from the graph alone you would deem his system to be all it could be.............no offense to the poster of the graph intended........... Just from the graph no, however I know canyonman is relentless in his pursuit of good sound. All the changes he's made over the years give his ears as the final say in if a change he's made is worth it or not. The graphs help him determine what's actually happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Dave it's like your bragging....."and I'll do so without so much as an SPL meter.".... I guess I can see that. Wasn't my intention. As an audio engineer I cannot tell you how many times I have added this EQ, that filter, or some process over hours trying to improve a piece of less than adequate audio and then simply removed it all finding the cure worse than the symptom. You can't fix crap. It is why I use no mixers or anything other than what MUST be employed when recording. Some of you do great things with various treatments. I salute you. I find it unnecessary as the filters and processors that came with my brain appear to compensate for all but the most egregious room issues if the source material is right. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul79 Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 (edited) What exactly is the point of what your postings in here? They are gear heads that this hobby really has very little to do with music or the love of it... plenty of folks are in this for all kinds of reasons...some are what I call the techno babble crowd...they spend more time reading specs and debating about the importance of them then they do listening to music.. If you didn't get my point I don't think any more explanations will help. So I guess by your description PWK fits into the "gear heads" and "techno babble crowd" since he spent a lifetime measuring his loudspeakers and used those tests with listening tests to improve his designs....... I learned long ago specifications and techno babble that goes with them are completely useless in this hobby! Sure you want good specs but they will tell you zero about what something will sound like regardless of the type of gear were talking about. Why would you want good specifications if they are "completely useless" and "they will tell you zero about what something will sound like" ....? miketn You really can be an obnoxious A-hole but hey I've known that for years..... Let me repeat myself and please do not take what I say out on context again.... SPECIFICATIONS tell you ABSOLUTELY nothing about how something will sound....IF THEY DID the hobby would be very boring and we wouldn't have a thing to debate. We would all simply go down to the local box store and all buy the EXACT same thing. Two of the same types of devices can have specifications that are dead nuts identical and sound completely different. So putting too much emphasis on specifications and tests is a road to disappointment.... Do you really think Paul Klipsch or any audio designer worth a shite really designs by specification alone.... if Paul Klipsch did then why not use the drivers with best specifications available in his speakers? Hell look at the POS driver is in the infamous Jubilee... that thing is not even remotely the best driver for that horn specification wise! THEY USE the most important piece of test gear available as the final judge, yup those good old reliable ears...problem is many around here don't have them...especially the techno babble crowd. I tell you what I've sat back and read on the side lines around here for a long time now while painfully watching a good number of boneheads lead the crowd in here to total ear bleed....for some reason these days I'm just sick of reading the total Bullshit spewed around here.. The techo babble bunch needs to head to the ear doctor and get a check up the damage has to be severe... I guess if you don't have anything better to say then you can resort to name calling..... You really need to go back and read what you have been posting Craig..........I took nothing out of context so sorry if you don't like it but they are your own words in exactly the context you posted them in. miketn you indeed took what I posted completely out of context...insulting someone politely is no different then just calling a spade a spade. One takes balls and other takes being a spineless wimp... you figure out which camp you belong in. OOOOhhhh Burn! He just called you out man. You gonna put up with that? LMAO! If he said that crap to me, I'd be finding that SOB.... Edited August 4, 2014 by paul79 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 (edited) ".... OOOOhhhh Burn! He just called you out man. You gonna put up with that? LMAO! If he said that crap to me, I'd be finding that SOB.... ..." Only if you thought that any of this matters. It doesn't! So many of these threads turn out to be infomercials and advertising campaigns. I guess in this case someone is bragging that he re-builds and designs electrical equipment without the advantage of basic electronic measurements. I guess there is a market for that sort of thing. Anyway, good luck on your marketing strategy, I hope it works for you. I just can not figure out why the name calling and insults are required. Is this part of creating a "mystique" for the products? Edited August 4, 2014 by PrestonTom 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 You really can be an obnoxious A-hole but hey I've known that for years..... I didn't see anything obnoxious about his post other than the fact he was disagreeing with you. The obnoxious part of his post is the fact that he knows good and well he is twisting the meaning of what I wrote... totally ignoring the valid points made and picking small parts of a post to make himself looks like he has some valid point...classic twisted debate style nothing more, nothing less... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 I'd imagine from the graph alone you would deem his system to be all it could be.............no offense to the poster of the graph intended........... Just from the graph no, however I know canyonman is relentless in his pursuit of good sound. All the changes he's made over the years give his ears as the final say in if a change he's made is worth it or not. The graphs help him determine what's actually happening. Here we have the same thing again but to a lesser degree. My post was to Miketn...and about his perception. My post has absolutely nothing to do with Canyonman or his system in anyway.. I was just using Miketn comment about the graphs as an example of folks putting way too much faith in measurements. I personally think Canyonman could remove that EQ and use better or smarter room treatments and maybe needs to address some other minor issues within his system.... in the end I think he could have a better sounding system without the EQ then with the EQ. I can flat out say without reservation that by pumping your signal into one of these modern day wonders inner detail of the music is lost...no doubt they can solve some problems but they also create a major bottleneck....Fix the problem at its source not with a Band-Aid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul79 Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 (edited) Only if you thought that any of this matters. It doesn't! Hence the stupid post I made. It's pretty easy to see what is going on here. Edited August 4, 2014 by paul79 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 ".... OOOOhhhh Burn! He just called you out man. You gonna put up with that? LMAO! If he said that crap to me, I'd be finding that SOB.... ..." Only if you thought that any of this matters. It doesn't! So many of these threads turn out to be infomercials and advertising campaigns. I guess in this case someone is bragging that he re-builds and designs electrical equipment without the advantage of basic electronic measurements. I guess there is a market for that sort of thing. Anyway, good luck on your marketing strategy, I hope it works for you. I just can not figure out why the name calling and insults are required. Is this part of creating a "mystique" for the products? My gosh....where is the infomercials and advertisement? You need to get your head examined dude. You folks shilling all this modern day crap is more of an infomercial and advertisement as anything in this thread. The truth of the matter is you are insecure in your decisions so you get your panties in a tissy if someone disagrees with you. This same insecurity is what leads you folks to the modern day crap you put so much faith in.......you have to have the graphs and test results to confirm what your ears should easily be able to tell you...most likely you blew those out years ago with all those megawatt SS amps coupled to Klipsch Heritage speakers! Thanks god I found glorious sounding tube amplifiers before I got into to Klipsch heritage on this very forum.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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