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Foil Inductors, why the new trend?


Guest David H

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That's easy, the plots don't lie. I think he would come down on the side of Litz. Now, the real question is this - would he actually use them, since they are a bit on the expensive side. He could have used better capacitors, but he didn't.

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Guest David H

Well, I'm finally sick of reading about stray capacitance, inductive reactance, etc. The power loss figures are nice to have and I appreciate Al doing them, but he should also listen to the things he measures. These things absolutely kick *** in series with the K-33, so I think I'm going to have to disagree with your "shouldn't be used on woofers" assessment.

The Roadshow Super AA I sent out had a copper foil in series with the K-55, and pretty much everyone loved the sound of that thing. I can only conclude that like capacitors, power loss only forms one part of a bigger picture. I'm sure Al would say a $3 Audyn polypropylene is a better capacitor than a Jensen or a Jupiter, and he would be very wrong - well - if the sound has anything to do with it.

I am sure your road show super AA crossovers sound great. That was never in question.

I also seem to remember stating the Foil inductors performed far better than I had anticipated.

Further more I said "There is more to consider when choosing an inductor than Q, but from a Q standpoint alone, Foil inductors don't belong in the woofer filter."

Obviously there is more to an inductor than Q alone.

Dave

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Guest David H

That's easy, the plots don't lie. I think he would come down on the side of Litz. Now, the real question is this - would he actually use them, since they are a bit on the expensive side. He could have used better capacitors, but he didn't.

As always there is a balance of compromises, one of the compromises being $$$$

Dave

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I think it is a mistake to worry too much about the $$$ in the beginning. (except obviously someone has to pay for the various products for test purposes. Oh, and don't include a comment about that in your business plan for the bank)

I'm just saying that if you are worried about bang for buck all the way through it can cloud things. Figure out what works best for the application and then work your way back to see how to get to different levels of affordability. But you should be striving for the flagship product for the given application without regard to the cost. Some of those parts might actually turn out to be less expensive anyway. Then you can see where you can make budget decisions with the least amount of harm to the end result. As interesting and informing as measurements might be (they are to me anyway... as much as I am able to understand) my ears will be the final judge. That is, if I can afford it!

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I was a terrible Auricap freak......money did not matter at that point (stupid me). I think I spent about $1500 on these in 2006 and built them myself (all except es5800s). This is from 12/06. Purchased these Khorns from Coytee........He got Jubs (early adopter). ALK would not build ES5800s with Auricaps. I had to recap them myself once he sent them to me. :)

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post-10431-0-60720000-1406245721_thumb.j

Edited by mark1101
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A good reason not use CFCs is because they're a real pain to work with. I'd forgotten about the coil for the midrange - didn't that start out Litz and you had me change it?

I want to know why with every plot, I get three emails. I think people like to see the measurements, but at the same time they think they're one dimensional and actually hiding part of the truth. I think that because that's how I feel when I see them.

A few months ago I contacted John Warren and offered to pay him to do some measurements for me. I was tired of all of the electrical simulations and wanted acoustic measurements. Those two things are very different, and even an acoustic plot isn't the same as what you hear in the chair - which would take a notebook of data and plots. And then after all of that, someone has to ask the question: "So, how does it sound?"

Edited by DeanG
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I can't remember all the details concerning the first couple of iterations (besides the iron core inductor) but the pic above is what is still in all 3 lascalas today. I sold the pair to a friend here in Athens and in his house they are spectacular. He has an old Pioneer receiver from the 70s and the sound brought back memories.

I have a single las remaining with that network above and all 3 lascalas also have ALK tweeter attenuators.

I have been trying for a couple of years to gently sell the single but no bites as of yet.

I have a ton of old pics from this forum, gatherings, equipment, and audio stuff dating back to around 2003. I was pretty entertained last night looking back at all that.

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Guest David H
Oh, and don't include a comment about that in your business plan for the bank)

I am going to need a translation for this.

I think cost is always something that needs to be considered.

Dave

Edited by GotHover
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I wasn't very clear... sorry! I was just making a joke that it probably wouldn't go well if you were applying for a business loan and told them that you weren't going to consider cost.

I do think small shops have a little bit more leeway than a large corporation when pandering to us audio nuts.

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I just try to find out why might work best for them and then let them decide on the level of quality -- for the most part, the cost is completely dictated by the customer since my labor charge is static. There is a level of quality I won't build below -- I won't put my name on something that's embarrassing for me to look at, much less listen to.

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Just my .02 but I always liked the super Q's for my bass. ;) After reading the wiki on what Litz actually is I guess the fact that it doesn't gain resistance would seem to be something, but wheter it would be a gain/loss or not applicable to the performance is something that would have to be heard to validate.

Edited by cradeldorf
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Guest David H

I wasn't very clear... sorry! I was just making a joke that it probably wouldn't go well if you were applying for a business loan and told them that you weren't going to consider cost.

I do think small shops have a little bit more leeway than a large corporation when pandering to us audio nuts.

Understood, thanks for the clarification.

Dave

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Guest David H

Just my .02 but I always liked the super Q's for my bass. ;) After reading the wiki on what Litz actually is I guess the fact that it doesn't gain resistance would seem to be something, but wheter it would be a gain/loss or not applicable to the performance is something that would have to be heard to validate.

Super Q's are fantastic in a woofer filter, in fact hard to beat below 1Khz.

It doesn't have to be expensive to sound really good.

I am not sure which would perform better from a technical stand point, the Super Q or the Jantzen P-Core. That is why I am sending them to ALK for testing.

Dave

Edited by GotHover
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Just my .02 but I always liked the super Q's for my bass. ;) After reading the wiki on what Litz actually is I guess the fact that it doesn't gain resistance would seem to be something, but wheter it would be a gain/loss or not applicable to the performance is something that would have to be heard to validate.

Super Q's are fantastic in a woofer filter, in fact hard to beat below 1Khz.

It doesn't have to be expensive to sound really good.

I am not sure which would perform better from a technical stand point, the Super Q or the Jantzen P-Core. That is why I am sending them to ALK for testing.

Dave

If ALK says that via measurements that a certain "one" is better............but by ear the other one sounds better to you.............what would you do?

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AL has always helped me and others out. There was a point several years ago I talked with him a few times and was building a few of his networks. He always helped me. He designed the ESN for the MWMs and DBBs for me when I asked for it. No charge. He even posted those networks he was designing for folks to help them. He desinged a Jub ESN......free. You could download and DIY. That has since ceased for certain reasons but they were there on his site for a few years.

You have to know AL. He is a serious old school engineer and the measurements rule.

It's not so unusual to disagree with his opinion when you take "the way it actually sounds" into account. This happened to me more than once concerning types of audiophile caps..........as Dean alluded to. Al didn't believe in the expensive caps and refused to use them.

This is why I asked if it measures good but doesn't sound best..........what will you do?

I miss havng AL post here. This place frustrated him. But he was one of the best if not the best resources I have ever seen on this forum.

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Guest David H

Just my .02 but I always liked the super Q's for my bass. ;) After reading the wiki on what Litz actually is I guess the fact that it doesn't gain resistance would seem to be something, but wheter it would be a gain/loss or not applicable to the performance is something that would have to be heard to validate.

Super Q's are fantastic in a woofer filter, in fact hard to beat below 1Khz.

It doesn't have to be expensive to sound really good.

I am not sure which would perform better from a technical stand point, the Super Q or the Jantzen P-Core. That is why I am sending them to ALK for testing.

Dave

If ALK says that via measurements that a certain "one" is better............but by ear the other one sounds better to you.............what would you do?

That's a personal preference call.

There are a lot of people that like Bose, and cant stand horns. Does that mean one is actually better than the other?

Just because a part costs more doesn't mean it is particularly better, though I believe a lot of people perceive an improvement due to the price they pay.

Dave

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