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CF-3 or 4 high passed with a sub?


MikeFord

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Since Moray James first planted the seed in my head I've been looking for a pair of CF-3 or CF-4, main issue being the larger horn. Since I haven't until now found any practical to buy I haven't thought much about one vs the other used high passed with a sub as I plan to use them. Yesterday I found a pair of CF-4, and was one lazy son away from taking a longish drive and buying them, but 44x19x17 108 lbs made a solo pickup by me a non starter.

This has me wondering, should I be going for the CF-4 or its smaller sibling instead, or just looking for horn and driver and building a smaller non ported box from scratch with all the bracing etc. just how I want it?

When I say high passed, most likely that will be around 80 hz with all the bass bass going to the sub.

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IMO, cf-4 & 3 have excellent bass, why would you want to cut it off? they are overkill if you plan to rob their bass. might as well get some smaller woofer speakers, or, run them full range & still use the sub. high pass will just kill their performance unless you have some crazy sub that will make up for it.

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You should have gone for the CF-4! Trust me, I can relate to you when it comes to the lazy son. In retrospect, I wish I had done a little more of being firm with "you don't pay rent here, so get your behind in the car, I need some help."

I have lifted mine, and frankly it was not my smartest move, but there was nobody else to help at that time. They are heavy, but also hard to get a handle on. I managed mine by putting them on a towel and scooting them, and to lift them out of the car I used some Styrofoam sheets, and used leverage. If you go slow, you can do it safely and without damaging the speakers.

+++

I have tested the CF-4's with and without a sub. My results are a mixed bag. With the sub, the bass sounds become a little muddy. Without the sub, I don't get the performance I do while using the sub with a speaker designed to use a sub. The sub might best be used with the CF-4 while listening to moderate sound levels to get a chest thump. If you crank up the volume, the CF-4 can produce its own chest thump very well.

I think I could fiddle with the settings and use the CF-4 with sub, but except for VERY demanding critical listening, especially with movies, the CF-4 as a stand alone is fine for sub-level bass.

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I'm not going to do anything that doesn't improve the sound, but I've never heard a speaker where it wasn't possible to improve the overall sound by routing the bass to a dedicated subwoofer. The physics are simple, if the woofer has appreciable cone movement that will distort the higher frequencies it reproduces at the same time. Half the power is below 100hz, take that out and you remove a major source of voicecoil heating and dynamic compression. The "trick" is that you need a subwoofer that works BETTER than the mains over the desired frequency range, and still meshes well with them.

Ultimately, I'll be real surprised if I don't end up with something custom, with this more of an education on the sound of some horns other than my Forte or Heresy speakers.

Not giving up on getting these CF-4's, but flaky buyer and flaky seller make a delicate transaction. I would have pushed harder if I thought the deal might poof, which I don't, or hope not, plus I have no place to put them right now and filling the back seat and the trunk and leaving them in the car a week has such a low WAF its scary.

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A good 2 ch system can benefit from adding a sub or two. The Hi's and mids will be more dynamic. Better power management and distribution. I use the RF 7's with subs for a lot of music listening. Subs make the bass a bit richer for lack of a better word.

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I'm not going to do anything that doesn't improve the sound, but I've never heard a speaker where it wasn't possible to improve the overall sound by routing the bass to a dedicated subwoofer. The physics are simple, if the woofer has appreciable cone movement that will distort the higher frequencies it reproduces at the same time. Half the power is below 100hz, take that out and you remove a major source of voicecoil heating and dynamic compression. The "trick" is that you need a subwoofer that works BETTER than the mains over the desired frequency range, and still meshes well with them.

Ultimately, I'll be real surprised if I don't end up with something custom, with this more of an education on the sound of some horns other than my Forte or Heresy speakers.

Not giving up on getting these CF-4's, but flaky buyer and flaky seller make a delicate transaction. I would have pushed harder if I thought the deal might poof, which I don't, or hope not, plus I have no place to put them right now and filling the back seat and the trunk and leaving them in the car a week has such a low WAF its scary.

Your entire post makes sense. And you are really right to consider the WAF factor, as these are BIG speakers and they can dominate the front of your living room, visually.

I have a few sets of speakers now that I am playing with, just to hear what sounds better with what. I have a DIY speaker Fusion 10 (pictured below) that was designed to be used with a sub, and it sounds better (maybe different, more accurate is a better word) than the stock Klipsch CF-4. But the stock CF-4 vs the Fusion 10, the CF-4 blows it out of the water.

If you can get the CF-4 for less than the usual $600, I would say do it. It's well worth the sound, and you can always recoup your money if you decide you don't like the sound, and don't want to mod the speaker.

Edit: I was able to modify my CF-4 with some silicon seal to dampen the horns, and a small amount of polyfil, total cost around $30. It made the CF-4 much more accurate by taking out the nasal sound.

post-58280-0-00820000-1406929852_thumb.j

Edited by wvu80
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I use two subs with my CF3s. I don't care about more bass but I do care about better bass. Two, or more, subs can help any two channel system. It's a shame you passed on those CF4s.

cubdog

I am hoping its a delay, not a pass, the seller has limited availability, so I plan to try and jump when the next window opens.

My living room is close to tolerance max already. I have Quad ESL63 in Arcici stands, a yard square dipole sub, Forte's, Heresy's, two sets of small two ways, Signets and Clements, and two large center channels, RC7 and I think its a clements. and much misc. The CF-4 would get squeezed in for a comparison, then some stuff would have to be sold or put in storage.

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I use two subs with my CF3s. I don't care about more bass but I do care about better bass. Two, or more, subs can help any two channel system. It's a shame you passed on those CF4s.

cubdog

I am hoping its a delay, not a pass, the seller has limited availability, so I plan to try and jump when the next window opens.

My living room is close to tolerance max already. I have Quad ESL63 in Arcici stands, a yard square dipole sub, Forte's, Heresy's, two sets of small two ways, Signets and Clements, and two large center channels, RC7 and I think its a clements. and much misc. The CF-4 would get squeezed in for a comparison, then some stuff would have to be sold or put in storage.

Nice collection of speakers. I love Quads.

cubdog

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I have a pair of cf4's, which i have done a few mods too and can be seen in mod section, and the bass is super clean and hits super hard and hits super low. Moray said i would not be needing a sub and it would sound like there is a sub in the room and he was right. I swear it sounds like there is sub in the room, pictures on walls shake, lights buzz the whole 9. The mods i did really did improve the bass.

These speakers to me, are by far the best speakers i have ever heard. I personally preffer them over the khorns. I also have them biamped which i think is a must. They do not sound like regular heritage speakers.

Jump in the car and go listen to them. I dont think you would be disapointed and i think you will be surprised. Dont let opportunity pass you by. Let us know what happens.

Alex

Edited by alexg5775
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With all due respect to Alex and Moray I still believe any 2 channel system can benefit from distributed bass via multiple subs. There is a ton of information out there discussing these benefits. I'll simply say, from my experience, adding two subs to my system has benefited whatever speakers I've used including my CF3s. Again, the issue is not more bass, only better bass.

cubdog

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I've lived with Quads longer than any speaker, and as is well known they don't play loud or low. The premise of the Enigma dipole panel sub I use with them is that it extends to a true 20 hz, and by high passing the Quads 2 or 3 db more output may be possible. As it turned out, the bass from the Enigma sounds exactly like the bass from the Quads, I didn't notice them playing any louder (maybe a limit of the Quad 606 amp), and I didn't really notice the extension of the bass except on the odd organ bit. I kept the expensive does nothing for the low end subwoofer because it worked wonders on the sound of the Quads playing them 100Hz and up instead of full range. I hate to use the terms open and three D, but that was it, flip a switch to full range and a huge deep soundstage folded to flat.

I still have no place to put them, but plan to pick them up tomorrow, even if it means a couple days in the car before sneaking them in the house.

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With all due respect to Alex and Moray I still believe any 2 channel system can benefit from distributed bass via multiple subs. There is a ton of information out there discussing these benefits. I'll simply say, from my experience, adding two subs to my system has benefited whatever speakers I've used including my CF3s. Again, the issue is not more bass, only better bass.

cubdog

Forgot to mension I have a THTLP Subwoofer. (Horn sub)

Small review i posted on speakers bass is obviously with sub not is use. Sub sounds GREAT with speakers. I listen to alot of bass heavy music, (hip hop, techno, etc) and the bass is just effortless. Bass is super clean, loud and hits low. I am in the process of moving a few things around, building amp rack, modding cf4's , amps geting recapped, etc. Ill be sure to post a full reveiw on cf4's with equipment i have, compared to Khorns when all is done.

Alex

Edited by alexg5775
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Deal is done, speakers home, albeit one still in the car. One in the back seat, smooth as silk, no issues, one in trunk, not going to happen by an inch or more in all conceivable configurations so packed towels around it hanging out the back and drove home on surface streets carefully.

No chance to bring them in the house for a day or so, thinking about a stack with Epic CF-4 on the bottom, Forte, then Heresy on top, but not too seriously, but I just might until I have more space to put the somethings that won't be staying in the livingroom.

Short ports, so not the earliest version, black oak scuffed some on the bottom and couple spots. Threaded holes on the bottom I assume for spikes not included and one is boogered pretty bad, but nothing too serious at first inspection. One woofer looks like the dust cap was pushed in and then pulled out with pins or something as it has some crinkle and three small holes with silicone seal in them.

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Two nice camera's, several laptops and desktops, PITA to go from A to B, so photo transfers happen in batches. Nothing special to see except for small areas of damage on what I would call average plus condition speakers.

S/N 234493492 on the one that is handy to read, finish is listed as black satin, I think that decodes to 1994 234th day, Aug 22nd.

Wow, these are not easy to move around or carry up stairs. Today's limit reached, none left in car, one in garage, one a few feet inside the house until better space arrangements are complete.

First listen, "maybe this weekend", thinking some now about what I will play first on them.

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