wvu80 Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 (edited) I'm afraid I don't know what "esl" sounding means. I tried to Google it, but my Google Search is running so slow in the last few days, and it times-out on searches. electrostatic loudspeaker Electrostatic? As in Magnaplaners? Why didn't you just say so? I owned a pair of ESL's and didn't even know it. I used to own a set of Magnapans! Edited January 29, 2015 by wvu80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I'm afraid I don't know what "esl" sounding means. I tried to Google it, but my Google Search is running so slow in the last few days, and it times-out on searches. electrostatic loudspeaker Electrostatic? As in Magnaplaners? Why didn't you just say so? I owned a pair of ESL's and didn't even know it. I used to own a set of Magnapans! Maggies are planar speakers but they are not electrostatic. Maggies have isodynamic panels. These are mylar film diaphragms with wire voice coils attached over the surface of the diaphragm and the coils are driven by plastiform strip magnets not unlike those in your Fridge door, the strip magnets are bonded to a perforated steel plate which acts asa frame and pole piece for the magnets. Some Maggies have ribbon tweeters. Contrary to popular belief Maggie bass panels are not particularly low in mass and many cone drivers are lower in moving mass per unit area. I have owned several sets Maggies myself along with a whole lot of electrostatic loudspeakers. Best regards Moray James. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
expresso Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 you know - i dont disagree with you - i did the Mid Ti - i got all excited and figure why not do it - i dont mind how they sound and am happy with mines - but if you figure in the money etc, like you did - i would bet if just upgrading the X over and leaving everything else alone - the way they came stock - would sound just as good also - i was not dissatisfied before i made the change to Mid Ti - but i am not unhappy with them now that i did do it - was it worth the price paid - if you consider the cost of the speaker themselves - then you add in the x overs - tweeters mid ti - you almost double the cost overall - it may not be worth it if you want to sell them again - but i do not see myself selling them ever so for me it was worth the it - not concerned on getting my investment back - my main concern was enjoying them at there best -- which is subjective - i noticed a nice improvement in my forte II after doing it - as compared to before - but if you had an EQ or some kind of signal processing - you could just as easy adjust it to your liking without the Mid Ti etc, - now i have them and use them with out any signal processing EQ etc, and they sound as if you had an EQ - i feel no need to make changes to the sound - at least for time being - once i get used to it - i am sure i will play around and see what i can tweak - but just knowing that i dont have to do anything and they sound very nice - is a good thing - by the way - i read that all Chipole use Klipsch Hersey speakers - so i went to see for myself at my local one and yeah - all the times i went there - i never noticed them - but there they were up high in the upside position - pretty cool - since i never heard them - at least i have an idea of there sound -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 I had the titanium mids in my KLF-30's for about two months. When I first installed them, they were a little too hot on the high end but nothing a minor EQ adjustment couldn't take care of like I said earlier in the thread. I absolutely loved the way they improved the sound. They were extremely detailed, crisp and smooth. As weeks went by the detailed, crisp smooth sound that had me listening to practically every recording I own slowly became less impressive. I figured my ears had gotten used to the 'new' sound and the novelty had worn off.....but it didn't stop there. It got to the point that the speakers were sounding downright dull. A complete turnaround from two months earlier. I got to the point that I had to change something to find out what was going on. I even tried running the mids out of phase.....that made a total mess out of the sound. I took the ti's out and installed the Crites upgraded midrange diaphrams that I've had in storage for about 4+ years now. They already had 40+ hours on them from when I first tried them over 4 years ago. Very nice improvement. Like someone else said, they sound 'smooth' compared to the stock and the ti's......but the biggest improvement I hear with Bob's is that the center image is bigger and fuller compared to 'narrow' with the stock and ti mids. Big difference. They put a nice touch on the bass as well. I'm just wondering what could be the deal with the ti mids that I got from Simply Speakers.....could they be defective? I mean, they went from borderline 'harsh' to absolutely 'dull' sounding.....and it's not my ears. I didn't just start fiddling with this stuff yesterday so I'm familiar with my ears/mind playing tricks on me and the whole placebo effect. Has anyone experienced diaphrams that have degraded in a short period of time that would change the sound so drastically? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 perhaps they were breaking in and no longer required the EQ drop in response that you had set up initially? Maybe you are just not a fan of the signature the ti diaphragms have (lots are not). I personally woulds prefer aluminum diaphragms but they are not an option and so I much prefer the ti diaphragms over the stock Klipsch and Bob Crites phenolic diaphragms. As they say YMMV. Best regards Moray James. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
expresso Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 i am loving my Ti mids on my forte ll -- i have not done no xover mods and sounds great to me - everyone is different - i really dont hear anything over lapped - mid to tweeter etc, - cant say it dosnt - either the muisc i been listening too just dosnt expose it - or i just doing hear it - either way - i dont even think about it - i just look forward to listening to them all the time - everyone who heard them and hears them - all say the same thing - its LOUD and CLEAR - actually my friend on the 13 floor last week told me how clean it sounded -- i am on the 15floor and they heard it clean and loud - in there kitchen - two floors down dosnt sound that far - but hey - i have heard someone from the 7th floor tell me once also - i was playing it LOUD then - every so often i really let loose on a song or two - but for the most part - its pretty loud all the time - i am just used to it - i say on my EMO pre pro - Volume goes from 0 to 80 i am in the 50 area mostly and 40 for normal listening - once i get near the 60 on the volume - then it really opens up - i cant keep it there for long - maybe one song or two - this is with the XP5 amp - its rated at 200 x 5 - but with two channel is 275 - not a bad amp - i am still used to my GX5 - 500 Watt amp so this sounds a little weaker till i get up there in that 60 range on the volume - either Mid would be fine - i just wanted to try the Ti and i am happy with it with no mods to Bobs xover - Emo Eq does help and opens the sound stage - compared to direct mode - either way sounds great - but Emo Eq gives it a little top edge and opens it up a bit wider - i enjoy both and go back and forth depending on the music Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
expresso Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 if anyone is worried about the Mid Ti - just stick with the stock mids - new from bobs - and it be just as fine - i am sure you will love it either way - i think i am not so much on the warm side of things i guess - i like a little more on the top end and this works for me - bass is more than enough so not looking to make it warm sounding - also my area is warm with carpet - recliners fabric and wall treatment - that can make some difference - i learned when i first move the rug from the floor years ago and notice a big difference in sound - thats when i stared to research the wall treatment etc, and went with it - i feel it helped me - and added some color and decorated the walls at the same time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I'm sure this has been covered but I don't feel like reading the whole thread. There is no low pass for the squawker - nothing to roll off the output of the midrange except the mass roll-off of the diaphragm in conjunction with the horn. These two things determine the acoustic crossover point, and this is completely by design. When you extend the response of the midrange without adding the necessary crossover elements to create a band pass, you're creating a serious problem. With low order filters, some overlap is normal, and the amount of overlap is controlled. In this situation with the Ti diaphram, there is no control, and the midrange is running over quite a bit of the tweeter's lower end response. Really, there is nothing good happening here with this, and your speaker hates you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
expresso Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 your right - i guess on paper - if you follow the rule - - i compare this to an espresso shot - you have no idea how many factors are involved to getting a great espresso shot - so i follow the base rules of the perfect shot - and in the end - what matters most - is your taste when you drink it - and you be surprised many times - following the rule to the perfect shot - dosnt always end up with the taste i like - so i guess - there are base rules and also how you like it - even if the rules are not right on the nose - its personal taste - i guess its the same with the speakers for me - i dont mind it - - you try it - if you like it fine - if not you can go back - or add the bandpass etc, - i decided to try it with out first - and i got used to it fairly quickly - i dont see a need for the bandpass - each his own - i also see the specs on the site for the forte II - and it shows the xover point at 7000 - which is very very close to what the Mid Ti crosses at ? anyway really dosnt matter much - yes on paper and testings shows it - so thats a fact i guess - i just dont hear any Neg. effects - - some prefer it - some prefer other speakeres that sound bad to me - but great to that person - in the end - just enjoy it - i am not pushing them or anyone to use them or try it - i wanted to hear what it was all about - and was very worried finding out after i purchased them already - but decided to install them anyway and see - hear for myself - i am sure many here are thinking that i just dont know what it should sound like - or may feel it sounds so bad or terriable - i assure you - it sounds very good to me - also it could very well be that when i ran the EMO EQ setup - it does all the work to set up the EQ curve - so that may have - could have made adjustements to limit what overlapping there may be ? does sound different with the EQ - but sounds good with out also - just different - tigher sound stage - deeper bottom end - - well lets enjoy the weather finally - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) I'm sure this has been covered but I don't feel like reading the whole thread. There is no low pass for the squawker - nothing to roll off the output of the midrange except the mass roll-off of the diaphragm in conjunction with the horn. These two things determine the acoustic crossover point, and this is completely by design. When you extend the response of the midrange without adding the necessary crossover elements to create a band pass, you're creating a serious problem. With low order filters, some overlap is normal, and the amount of overlap is controlled. In this situation with the Ti diaphragm, there is no control, and the midrange is running over quite a bit of the tweeter's lower end response. Really, there is nothing good happening here with this, and your speaker hates you. I don't want to get into a pissing contest here. I just want to disagree with you. I have installed the ti mid diaphragm into a fair number of Klipsch speakers H2 (for a listen) a set of my Forte two sets of Forte ll a set of Quartet and two sets of KLF20. I have two sets of Heresy 3 which have the ti diaphragms and the filters you mention I hear no benefit there compared to my installs of the ti diaphragms. I have done a range on work on my tweeters from no mods or very little to a fair bit. That is not to say that some people are more sensitive to this frequency range and if you are one of these folks you can adjust if that is the case. I think the adjustment should have been made by Klipsch in the tweeter section of the crossover not the mid section but this is all just my two cents worth on the topic. Best regards Moray James. Edited March 10, 2015 by moray james 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted March 10, 2015 Author Share Posted March 10, 2015 perhaps they were breaking in and no longer required the EQ drop in response that you had set up initially? I reset the EQ to where it was before I got the ti mids and even bumped it up to try and get some of the sound back. Besides, I've never heard anyone describe ti mids as being dull or experiencing a loss in detail and clarity......it's usually the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 perhaps they were breaking in and no longer required the EQ drop in response that you had set up initially? I reset the EQ to where it was before I got the ti mids and even bumped it up to try and get some of the sound back. Besides, I've never heard anyone describe ti mids as being dull or experiencing a loss in detail and clarity......it's usually the opposite. just to be clear with zero eq in the system what does the balance of the ti mid sound like? If you say it has gone dull and lifeless then I suggest you perhaps have a crossover problem or some other issue. try taking all EQ out of the system and go back to straight stereo and see where things are. Hope this helps. Best regards Moray James.issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
expresso Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 a little off topic for a moment - did anyone get a chance to hear the new models yet ? is there a section here for that - if there is - can you link it to me so i can go to that section - i mean the new RP models which replace the RF 82 -62 etc, - since i am sure i wont be able to hear them anywhere around here - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted March 10, 2015 Author Share Posted March 10, 2015 perhaps they were breaking in and no longer required the EQ drop in response that you had set up initially? I reset the EQ to where it was before I got the ti mids and even bumped it up to try and get some of the sound back. Besides, I've never heard anyone describe ti mids as being dull or experiencing a loss in detail and clarity......it's usually the opposite. just to be clear with zero eq in the system what does the balance of the ti mid sound like? If you say it has gone dull and lifeless then I suggest you perhaps have a crossover problem or some other issue. try taking all EQ out of the system and go back to straight stereo and see where things are. Hope this helps. Best regards Moray James.issue. I'm glad you brought this up MJ. I did go with zero EQ with the ti mids and it sounded pretty bad. I mean, since employing a digital EQ to work with 'my specific room issues' I can't see ever going without one. Now that I have Bob's mids in now I will try it again with no EQ. Sometimes (a lot of times) it takes an outside observer to point out the obvious. I still have the stock x-overs with the cheap parts in them that are 15 years old now and it is next on my list to have someone upgrade them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Ok but if you are basically pleased with the sound of the phenolic skins and not at all with the ti diaphragms then I think that in all likely hood you are simply one of those folks who just do not lik ti diaphragms you hearing is sensitive in the area where they typically distort and the two of you mix like water and oil. You are also probably well due for fresh caps and after you have 3 -4 months on you new capacitors you might want to revisit the ti diaphragms but I will guess now you won't like them any better. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheric Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 You know... This subject of titanium diaphragms comes up once a month, why don't we just AGREE TO DISAGREE on it. Neither side could convince the other. Let your ears be the judge and the rest of the world, a hung jury. And for those who want to know, do a search and be prepared to spend a few days to read all those threads. Same thing over and over. My .02 cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I don't want to get into a pissing contest here. I just want to disagree with you. Disagreeing with me isn't the best way to avoid a pissing contest. The midrange and the tweeter are at full output at 7kHz. The response demands a modification to the network. It would be great if you would stop telling people that this isn't a big deal. Along with the sometimes good advice you give, you also sometimes give some not so good advice. I suppose we all do that from time to time -- but some of the stuff you try to talk people into doing borders on the bizarre. I'm adding your recent recommendation of applying acoustic felt to the cones to the list. The cones are not metal per se, because since they are anodized, the surface is ceramic, hence "cerametallic". The attached white paper, written by Floyd Toole and Allan Devantier is worth a read. cmmd.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 you are free to think what ever you like, but as I told you I have no interest in anything other than showing balance. You do not like the idea I do. Works for me. As to my recommendation about the acoustic felt well you got that wrong. I recommended a layer of acoustic felt to be used as an acoustic filter. The felt goes over the woofers not on the cones. You expect me to believe that Klipsch metal cones don't ring pretty much the same as most other anodized cones do? Why don't you post some raw unsmooth response graphs that show otherwise and I will be impressed. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cincymat Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 The Ti mids in my Forte II sound better to me that the original phenolic dome mids. I do use a Crites bandpass filter I installed at the same time as the Ti mids. The one thing I hear more than anything else is the separation between the mid and the tweeter is more clearly defined now. My guess is the bandpass filter does a better job than the acoustic roll off method in the stock setup. Looking at the chart Dean posted, does anyone know how the Ti curve is shaped at 7000 hz with the bandpass filter installed? Just wondering. Thanks, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 The Ti mids in my Forte II sound better to me that the original phenolic dome mids. I do use a Crites bandpass filter I installed at the same time as the Ti mids. The one thing I hear more than anything else is the separation between the mid and the tweeter is more clearly defined now. My guess is the bandpass filter does a better job than the acoustic roll off method in the stock setup. Looking at the chart Dean posted, does anyone know how the Ti curve is shaped at 7000 hz with the bandpass filter installed? Just wondering. Thanks, Mark Mark there were two different issues being discussed above. The ti mid diaphragm simply has a wider band than the phenolic version. With the phenolic version the mid diaphragm was simply allowed to roll off on it own at the top end of its response and the bottom range of the tweeter was adjusted to fit the mid. When you install the ti mid diaphragm it extends up higher so the add on filter is there to make the ti roll the same as the phenolic. To me it makes more sense to not add more complexity to the mid filter section but rather to adjust the tweeter section. I modify my drivers and horns so I don't have the need of the add on filter. Even without it I don't have an issue. As I mentioned I have installed the ti mids into a good number of different speakers. I also own two sets of H3 which have ti mids and the filter in question so I have listened to both. All I suggested really is for people to try the ti mid first with out the filter burn it in and see if you are happy or not. If you feel you want/need the filter buy one or make one. Some people just do not like titanium diaphragms at all so filter or no filter they won't be happy campers. In that case Bob Crites has a very fine sounding phenolic diaphragm which I have used and like better than the stock Klipsch. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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