hydro_pyro Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 I have extensive background in pro sound. I understand phase, and what drivers sound like when they're out of phase. What I don't understand is why my sub sounds deeper and more accurate with my sub's phase is reversed. My front towers are on the same plane as my sub. The effect is the same in almost any part of the room. Why would this be happening? Thanks in advance. RF-25 fronts RC25 center RB-25 surrounds RW-10 sub Yamaha V577 receiver 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) That does sound a bit odd but possible. Your room looks to be about 11 feet deep. How far is your main listening position from the rear wall? Bill Edited August 23, 2014 by willland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted August 23, 2014 Moderators Share Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) Mine is the same, I set it 180 degrees out on the sub amp, I would think it's the room causing this ,what else could it be ? Sound waves canceling each other out is all I can think of is my guess ? I have heard if is a sever case it can eliminate all bass, never it that bad myself. My bass is a folded horn and so is the sub, the room is 24' wide and 34' long, I would guess every room is different. Nice looking room. Edited August 23, 2014 by dtel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hydro_pyro Posted August 23, 2014 Author Share Posted August 23, 2014 Ideal listening position is the couch on the right. It's up against an outside wall. This is just a typical living room in a modest modular ranch home. Yes, about 10 feet from listening position. If I was in the middle of the room and my sub was in a far corner, I could see the possibility of phase cancellation with long waves, but it's not the case here. In normal phase, the bass sounds compressed, if not suppressed. In 180°, it has all the punch. Maybe the far wall (to the listener's right) is providing a phase-canceling reflective path, but if that were the case, other parts of the room would have a "summing" bass hot spot, which is NOT the case. In some parts of the room, it somehow sounds the same on either setting. In most places in the room, it hits harder with the phase reversed (either with the receiver setting, or by twisting the sub phase knob fully to 180°.) Weird... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 The wiring on the sub driver may be reversed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hydro_pyro Posted August 23, 2014 Author Share Posted August 23, 2014 ...and what's the deal with the large/small speaker settings? I understand it's a high-pass filter in "small" mode... But does it also re-direct a larger portion of those blocked lows to the sub when I put any of the main speakers in small mode? Does small mode help to reduce low-frequency phase cancellation by reducing the number of sound wave sources and isolating them to the sub? Does the crossover frequency setting also change the high-pass cutoff for the main speakers, in addition to changing the low-pass setting for the sub? If I'm sitting on the other end of my couch near the rear bookshelf speaker while listing to music in 7-speaker (5 speaker) mode, the small setting obviously makes my RB's sound thinner. I can actually hear the lows coming from the sub and the highs blaring in my left ear, as opposed to the large setting where I feel like I'm equally surrounded by a full-range tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hydro_pyro Posted August 23, 2014 Author Share Posted August 23, 2014 When I first got the sub, it had a slight rattle... I took off the amp panel and found some wiring laying against the port tube. I pulled it back to correct the issue. I'm pretty sure the +/- speaker wires were hooked up correctly. There was no evidence it had ever been opened up before then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 My bass is a folded horn and so is the sub, the room is 24' wide and 34' long, I would guess every room is different. It's common on a horn sub to have to reverse phase to sound right. If you unfolded the horn and put the driver on the back end you'd see that it's no longer in the same plane as the mains. It would be 10 ft or so (depending on the horn) back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) I find the same thing OP... and I to run mine 180 out because it seems less bloated and much tighter and cleaner. I go back and forth between in phase and out of phase at least 4-3 times a month just to be sure I am hearing what I am hearing. Edited August 23, 2014 by Schu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Sounds like you have it right, phase should be set where your subwoofer sounds loudest. When your subwoofer is in phase with your speakers they work together, when out of phase you get cancellations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 .. But does it also re-direct a larger portion of those blocked lows to the sub when I put any of the main speakers in small mode? It should, yes. Does small mode help to reduce low-frequency phase cancellation by reducing the number of sound wave sources and isolating them to the sub? Yes, the fewer sources, the less chance of cancellation. Does the crossover frequency setting also change the high-pass cutoff for the main speakers, in addition to changing the low-pass setting for the sub? On the plate amp or receiver? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hydro_pyro Posted August 23, 2014 Author Share Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) Receiver. I used YPAO to set up the level and distance delay settings. Plate crossover is set to the highest setting as recommended, so the receiver determines the actual cutoff. I'm just wondering if the setting also changes high-pass frequency if the mains are in "small" mode... Or if the setting is simply the low-pass setting for the sub output. Maybe I should actually read the PDF... Gosh, I wish they included a paper manual. On the sub, what's the difference in using the LFE input, rather than one side of the L/R inputs? Edited August 23, 2014 by hydro_pyro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 What I don't understand is why my sub sounds deeper and more accurate with my sub's phase is reversed. Butterworth filters (the most common type in subwoofer low-pass filter networks) will be lagging above the cutoff. Combine that with the natural response of the cabinet and the distances involved, and it's not uncommon at all to require a signal inversion to line everything back up. It might be "inverted" as the switch says so, but not as the room sees it. The ear relies heavily on cues in the 90-200 Hz range to decipher what's going on in the lower registers, so it goes without saying that if the crossover isn't right, clarity of the system across the entire sub-bass / bass passband will be non-exsistent, to AFU at best...A most common complaint from people attempting to employ a component subwoofer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 I like the fact the wires from your TV are buried in the wall, that's done right with class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Setting the speaker to small can lead to less problems with bass cancellation in the room. Your sub will outperform your mains and the small setting is the most preferred setting. This will also decrease distortion from the mains and make the system more efficient power wise. I set my RF 7's and all the speakers to small. I have a giant satellite system, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hydro_pyro Posted August 24, 2014 Author Share Posted August 24, 2014 (edited) Hollow and Derrick, very good explanation. You've confirmed what I suspected. I will continue to trust my ear. Mark... Yes, I put opened-up drop-in boxes in the wall above and below, and made cover plates with a simple hole where the cables enter and exit. My rear speaker wires also enter another opening like this behind the rack, into the crawl, to re-emerge at another set of plates behind the couch. I built a set of oak stands for the rear RB's... 14 ga. ProCo round-jacket speaker wires are hidden in a slot ripped in the back side of one leg. I hate exposed wires. Edited August 24, 2014 by hydro_pyro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Loving those stands. Brilliant feature to hide the wiring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelandKlipsch Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 I'm a big fan of having wires in walls and hidden from view I used a similar method with my two TVs. Installed brush plates for all cabling. Your setup is very neat and clean cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Man I wish my living room looked that clean! Anyway you could pull mains out from the wall and let that port breathe? As well as the center to the edge of the av center so you don't get early reflections. That should clear up the dialogue a bit for sure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 hanging wires never bothered me personally... but I surely wish my set up look as sanitary as OP's does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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