Jump to content

Khorns Time Alignment


jcmusic

Recommended Posts

Thank you for posting this.

 

Very interesting because this data suggests that time-aligning the K-Horn (or La Scala in my case) might be best served by delaying the entire top end instead of just the tweeter....which happens to be inline with how the AL-3 network is factory wired to be divided for bi-amping. Just a matter of cutting two wires.

 

Just so happens my receiver can actually accommodate this scenario quite easily (bi-amp with a few ms of delay). I'll have to check this feature out.  B)

 

....which means digging out the sound card, mic, laptop again... :wacko:  <cracking knuckles>

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for posting this.

 

Very interesting because this data suggests that time-aligning the K-Horn (or La Scala in my case) might be best served by delaying the entire top end instead of just the tweeter....which happens to be inline with how the AL-3 network is factory wired to be divided for bi-amping. Just a matter of cutting two wires.

 

Just so happens my receiver can actually accommodate this scenario quite easily (bi-amp with a few ms of delay). I'll have to check this feature out.  B)

 

....which means digging out the sound card, mic, laptop again... :wacko:  <cracking knuckles>

Think of it this way once you've done it your through!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Paul,

No they are not stock, these have the Volti Audio 2" horns and BMS 4592-mid drivers with Fostex tweeters and custom xovers. The only thing stock is the 15" woofer and the cabinets and they have the backs closed in as well!!!

Edited by canyonman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have the same setup, I also plan on getting fostex tweeters. Which ones do you have? I plan on getting t500amkII. 

With Gregs horns, your tweeters move to the side. I took them out and put them on top aligned with the mid driver vertically and horizontally
 

post-55716-0-34800000-1409568479_thumb.j

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, we tried them on both sides and on top. We definitely preferred (with blind tests) them on top. I cant say I have incredible hearing, but we can hear the difference moving them back and forth on top as well. They sounded the best and most cohesive on top and drivers aligned. What is easiest to hear for us were the wind instruments, especially trumpets. They sounded most realistic with this setup.

 

We are two friends living together. We are musicians (guitarist and drummer, keys) and good music listeners (mostly jazz and blues, but also electronic and rock). I can also hear the effect of the acoustic absorbing panel (sideways bass trap) and it is very positive. Although its a bass trap, it somehow really helps out with the upper frequencies clarity.

 

I really want to align the bass section too. However I don't want to put dsp's in the chain. I don't like the converter quality in the ones I tried like minidsp. I have good converters in my music studio and we can hear a lot of difference between good and bad converters. I am looking for a way to do it passively. It is physically not possible to move the bass section. We need a passive crossover design that somehow makes up for this delay... or any other suggestions without converters?

Edited by kodomo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

...I really want to align the bass section too. However I don't want to put dsp's in the chain. I don't like the converter quality in the ones I tried like minidsp. I have good converters in my music studio and we can hear a lot of difference between good and bad converters. I am looking for a way to do it passively. It is physically not possible to move the bass section. We need a passive crossover design that somehow makes up for this delay... or any other suggestions without converters?

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/151762-timing-measurements/?p=1766971

 

I'd recommend using better converters by using higher quality active crossover units.  There are preowned units available on ebay and craigslist that are very competitive in price.  For instance, I picked this one up used for $325 locally on craigslist:  http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global/en/products/processors/sp2060/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

... I don't want to put dsp's in the chain. I don't like the converter quality in the ones I tried like minidsp. I have good converters in my music studio and we can hear a lot of difference between good and bad converters. I am looking for a way to do it passively. It is physically not possible to move the bass section. We need a passive crossover design that somehow makes up for this delay... or any other suggestions without converters?

Not many here believe that there are any real audible difference between opamps, resistors, capacitors, etc. I would consider a modified Behringer unit - there are a couple places online that look like they do nice work with them.

When you change the physical space that a driver occupies - more changes than the time issue. At any rate, if you move the tweeter to the top and move it back, be sure to cover the surface and walls with a non-reflective material - I like felt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What idea? The concept is still the same doesn't matter which horns and drivers you have!!!

Not exactly.

 

 

I initially thought the impulse data was for the stock speakers. If that was the case, then the chart would be indicative for a La Scala also, and all that would need to be accomplished is to divide the AL-3 network at the factory bi-amp jumpers (between the top end and the bass bin) and dial-in a proportional amount of delay. A relatively easy experiment to carry out on my end.

 

In light of the news, I can't use the data.

 

There's other hardware out there that can time-align the top end (between the tweeter and the squawker) without breaking into the filter network. I'll have to wait some time to acquire it though.

 

 

When you change the physical space that a driver occupies - more changes than the time issue.

Excellent point .  :emotion-21: Basically why I'm in no hurry to experiment with separate horn/driver assemblies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

When you change the physical space that a driver occupies - more changes than the time issue. At any rate, if you move the tweeter to the top and move it back, be sure to cover the surface and walls with a non-reflective material - I like felt. 

 

That is why I have the acoustic panel around the tweeter and where the reflections may occur.

Is there a way to time align bass section with passive networks. I do not want to break the analog chain with ad/da converters. Having ad/da converters as high quality as my analog chain would bankrupt me. :)

 

Chris A, at the first link you provided, I couldnt figure out that diagram. I have been looking into all pass networks, is it similar?

I have in my music studio apogee and motu converters. I also have a oppo 105d and it's got good converters in it, actually more precise and clean than my motus. I had the chance to hear mytek converters, prism orpheus converters etc. Lots of studio quality stuff. After hearing these, it is easier to identify lower quality converters. Sometimes I wish I didnt hear them...

 

Edited by kodomo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is there a way to time align bass section with passive networks. I do not want to break the analog chain with ad/da converters. Having ad/da converters as high quality as my analog chain would bankrupt me. :)

 

Chris A, at the first link you provided, I couldnt figure out that diagram. I have been looking into all pass networks, is it similar?

 

I can't help you with anti-digital bias: note that I don't hear any artifacts of good active digital crossovers, but I can hear the effects of not using them with loudspeakers needing time alignment of horns/drivers.

 

You might try PMing djk on his all-pass filter experience for direct radiating loudspeaker bass bins, but he was pretty clear that it doesn't work for the application that you seek:

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/151762-timing-measurements/?p=1767350

Edited by Chris A
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, we tried them on both sides and on top. We definitely preferred (with blind tests) them on top. I cant say I have incredible hearing, but we can hear the difference moving them back and forth on top as well. They sounded the best and most cohesive on top and drivers aligned. What is easiest to hear for us were the wind instruments, especially trumpets. They sounded most realistic with this setup.

 

We are two friends living together. We are musicians (guitarist and drummer, keys) and good music listeners (mostly jazz and blues, but also electronic and rock). I can also hear the effect of the acoustic absorbing panel (sideways bass trap) and it is very positive. Although its a bass trap, it somehow really helps out with the upper frequencies clarity.

 

I really want to align the bass section too. However I don't want to put dsp's in the chain. I don't like the converter quality in the ones I tried like minidsp. I have good converters in my music studio and we can hear a lot of difference between good and bad converters. I am looking for a way to do it passively. It is physically not possible to move the bass section. We need a passive crossover design that somehow makes up for this delay... or any other suggestions without converters?

So here you are saying that having the mids and tweeters aligned vertically as well as time aligned made a difference to your ears? Meaning I have my tweeters pushed back on the tops but, they are not exactly over the mid driver just the same distance back. Mine are in the center on top of the cabinet not off to the side like yours...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not biased against digital at all. I listen to cd, sacd and like dsd and also make my own recordings in digital domain. However my analog chain sounds better than my digital chain. So unless the converters which I will put in between doesnt degrade anything I dont want to put them in. I dont want to fix some problems and introduce others.

 

 

Well, we tried them on both sides and on top. We definitely preferred (with blind tests) them on top. I cant say I have incredible hearing, but we can hear the difference moving them back and forth on top as well. They sounded the best and most cohesive on top and drivers aligned. What is easiest to hear for us were the wind instruments, especially trumpets. They sounded most realistic with this setup.

 

We are two friends living together. We are musicians (guitarist and drummer, keys) and good music listeners (mostly jazz and blues, but also electronic and rock). I can also hear the effect of the acoustic absorbing panel (sideways bass trap) and it is very positive. Although its a bass trap, it somehow really helps out with the upper frequencies clarity.

 

I really want to align the bass section too. However I don't want to put dsp's in the chain. I don't like the converter quality in the ones I tried like minidsp. I have good converters in my music studio and we can hear a lot of difference between good and bad converters. I am looking for a way to do it passively. It is physically not possible to move the bass section. We need a passive crossover design that somehow makes up for this delay... or any other suggestions without converters?

So here you are saying that having the mids and tweeters aligned vertically as well as time aligned made a difference to your ears? Meaning I have my tweeters pushed back on the tops but, they are not exactly over the mid driver just the same distance back. Mine are in the center on top of the cabinet not off to the side like yours...

 

Yes, but the actual difference came from pushing them back. Centring them on top or aligning the drivers exactly  doesn't make that much of a difference, as it is just a few centimeters. However, when they were completely to the side, they sound different to my ears. It is very easy to hear, put them completely outwards, have a listen, them move them completely inwards and have a listen. The soundstage changes a lot!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...