Newbie looking to upgrade crossovers on my Reference RF-3 ii

[Budman]

Cranky Knows Best

[ninjai18]

My approach is to try and keep the cost down around some number that makes sense for the loudspeaker. If you have a set of speakers that are worth around $600.00, do you really want a pair of $700.00 networks in them? Now, you can certainly do that, but it probably makes more sense to upgrade the loudspeaker.

I save the higher level upgrades for the big Heritage loudspeakers since they are more expensive and revealing. Also, since the Klipschorn, LaScala, and Belle Klipsch have networks that are exposed (not in the cabinet), the parts measure as bad or worse than they look. Replacing all of the parts with newer and better parts makes more sense with these guys.

With the PCB based networks, a popular alternative is to replace all of the inexpensive parts with a lot of other inexpensive parts, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Replacing a perfectly good coil with another coil of the same type is just paying for something you don't need. A truly better coil won't fit on the board, and if you move it to a different board, you change the modeled behavior of the circuit due to proximity effect. Most schematics state that all of the parts were measured while on the board. In other words, proximity effect, or mutual inductance - was factored in to determine the correct values for the coils. Moving them around to wherever you want probably isn't really ideal. This is more critical with the high pass, which uses more coils. Notice that on the Reference Series of loudspeakers, the coils are right next to each other, and on the double stacked boards, they are also right on top of each other.

There is nothing wrong with the original PCBs unless they are visibly damaged. There is also nothing wrong with the wiring. In fact, it's tin coated annealed copper wire, which is better than what most are replacing it with! In most cases, since the runs are shorter, there is less resistance.

There is nothing wrong with the coils, and replacing perfectly good coils with perfectly good coils is a waste of money.

Replacing grainy sounding resistors with grainy sounding resistors is also a waste of money (but they're so dirt cheap I guess it doesn't really matter).

In all cases, rather it be some Reference loudspeaker model, or any of the older Klipsch models - the only parts that really need attention are the capacitors and resistors. Money should go into the series capacitors in the high pass and the resistor(s). The low pass in the Reference speakers can be left as is, while electrolytics in the others should be replaced with the Bennics from Madisound. The values are high, and replacing a 68uF with a 65uF is perfectly fine (within 5% or pretty close).

I think the Dayton Audio capacitors net better results than some of the more expensive options - they are amazing for the money. I wouldn't use anything but Mills resistors. If you think all resistors sound the same, that's fine, but it has nothing to do with reality.

Replace the two orange/red oval capacitors. I believe they are a 12uF and a 5uF. The resistor values should be clearly marked, replace this with Mills non-inductives. All of these parts are available from www.partsexpress.com.

 

Any chance you might link me to the exact parts I need? I am new and need a bit of hand holding, if ya don't mind.

 

Also, what all do I need to do the mod, and where on the crossover network do I solder on the new parts? What would be really awesome is if you wouldn't mind circling the parts that could use upgrading on the crossover network. Thanks for all your guy's help!

Edited March 7, 2015 by ninjai18

[CECAA850]

and where on the crossover network do I solder on the new parts

 

Basically what you're doing is replacing your stock crossover parts with parts of the same value that are of higher quality.  If you are the least bit uncertain of what parts to use or how to install them, contact Dean through his web site for a quote.  it will be easier and better for both of you if you just send them to him for the work.  If you do them yourself and screw them up, it will be virtually impossible to repair them through internet correspondence.

[ninjai18]

I don't mind trying my hand at it, I've done lots of DIY stuff over the years. It's worth the risk to me. I'm just looking for a good starting point to get me going so I avoid as many headaches as I can.

[Deang]

This is the issue with supporting the DIY efforts of others, it's time consuming and can get really frustrating - it also puts me in the awkward position of being put on the hook if the project goes sideways (there will be disclaimers when I start selling kits).

Okay, read again what I wrote. I said to replace the orange/red oval capacitors and the resistors with Mills non-inductives. I said to use Dayton Audio capacitors, and told you where to get the parts. I stated that all of the values were written on the parts, and that I thought the values were 12 and 5. Believe it or not, that's a lot of information, and if you're ready to do the work, that should be enough, and you shouldn't need anymore handholding than that. I'm not trying to bust your chops, but it is what it is. There's a long list of little things that can bite you in the rear - and removing the old parts and figuring out how to position/where to place the new capacitors requires a little out of the box thinking, because since the new parts are larger - you can't always put them in the same place as the originals.

[ninjai18]

This is the issue with supporting the DIY efforts of others, it's time consuming and can get really frustrating - it also puts me in the awkward position of being put on the hook if the project goes sideways (there will be disclaimers when I start selling kits).

Okay, read again what I wrote. I said to replace the orange/red oval capacitors and the resistors with Mills non-inductives. I said to use Dayton Audio capacitors, and told you where to get the parts. I stated that all of the values were written on the parts, and that I thought the values were 12 and 5. Believe it or not, that's a lot of information, and if you're ready to do the work, that should be enough, and you shouldn't need anymore handholding than that. I'm not trying to bust your chops, but it is what it is. There's a long list of little things that can bite you in the rear - and removing the old parts and figuring out how to position/where to place the new capacitors requires a little out of the box thinking, because since the new parts are larger - you can't always put them in the same place as the originals.

Which type of capacitors should I get? There are several different kinds.

Which Mills resistor on this page should I choose? http://www.parts-express.com/cat/audio-grade-non-inductive-resistors/301 - What are the wattage and ohms ratings for the Mills resistors you are suggesting? Am I replacing the current resistors, or adding the Mills resistor in addition to the one that's already there to attenuate the high end? Any chance on a direct link to the caps and resistors?

Thank you for helping me out, and I do understand it can be frustrating. I really do appreciate the time you're taking to in order to help a fellow Klipsch fanatic.

P.S. I would never blame you if something went wrong.

Edited March 7, 2015 by ninjai18

[ninjai18]

If it helps, I found the crossover schematic. https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/144465-crossover-schematic-for-rf3/

 

I would also like to do the same crossover upgrades to my RC-3 ii center and RS-3 ii surrounds.

Edited March 7, 2015 by ninjai18

[Thaddeus Smith]

What sonic characteristics in your speakers do you find problematic enough to warrant crossover work? If none, there's no real point in doing this, other than some soldering practice. I'd suggest getting a Chinese class d amp off eBay and have fun swapping out capacitors and inductors, etc on one of those.. Most likely you'd have more dramatic effect on what you hear.

[ninjai18]

I am dead set on upgrading the crossovers. I want to DIY it, but just need a parts list.

Edited March 7, 2015 by ninjai18

[moray james]

If it helps, I found the crossover schematic. https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/144465-crossover-schematic-for-rf3/

 

I would also like to do the same crossover upgrades to my RC-3 ii center and RS-3 ii surrounds.

that schematic is for an RF3 not an RF3 ll

Edited March 7, 2015 by moray james

[ninjai18]

If it helps, I found the crossover schematic. https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/144465-crossover-schematic-for-rf3/

I would also like to do the same crossover upgrades to my RC-3 ii center and RS-3 ii surrounds.

that schematic is for an RF3 not an RF3 ll

I remember reading the only real difference between the two is that the RF-3 ii were upgraded to use Monster speaker wire internally. It don't think they changed any crossover specs or drivers.

[Thaddeus Smith]

I am dead set on upgrading the crossovers. I want to DIY it, but just need a parts list.

 

why? there's no reason not to discuss..

 

i'm in line for a pair of cornwall crossovers with jupiter caps, wax impregnated this and that, high quality craftsmanship, a fair amount of cash involved ... and there's a very real possibility that they won't sound any better than the franken-xovers i currently have in place. i don't hate anything about my current setup, but I had my heart set on this upgrade before I fell into a battery biased rework of my originals. I had the cash and so I want to find out for myself if there's any difference. Since mine sit on top of the cabinet, at the very least they will look better.

 

So, one could argue that I probably shouldn't have bothered with upgrading either - but at least I know why I'm doing it.

 

My only suggestion is that you do some leg work with whatever information is given to you and don't expect to be spoon fed.

[ninjai18]

I am dead set on upgrading the crossovers. I want to DIY it, but just need a parts list.

why? there's no reason not to discuss..

i'm in line for a pair of cornwall crossovers with jupiter caps, wax impregnated this and that, high quality craftsmanship, a fair amount of cash involved ... and there's a very real possibility that they won't sound any better than the franken-xovers i currently have in place. i don't hate anything about my current setup, but I had my heart set on this upgrade before I fell into a battery biased rework of my originals. I had the cash and so I want to find out for myself if there's any difference. Since mine sit on top of the cabinet, at the very least they will look better.

So, one could argue that I probably shouldn't have bothered with upgrading either - but at least I know why I'm doing it.

My only suggestion is that you do some leg work with whatever information is given to you and don't expect to be spoon fed.

I'm not forcing anyone to provide links to a few parts I need to upgrade them, I am asking politely. Is it really that big of a deal to ask for people to help me find the parts I need...? I am trying to avoid ordering the wrong parts, I really see absolutely no harm in this. It may even help others in upgrading their RF-3's. I have thought about doing it for a long time, it's a cheap upgrade and only a few parts. Edited March 7, 2015 by ninjai18

[Thaddeus Smith]

They have.. so take the info and do some research. You've got the part values there on the current components, suggestions on what to replace with, and the source. buy some stuff, solder it on, and see what happens. That is DIY.

[ninjai18]

No offense buddy, but you are being needlessly aggressive and creating a problem where there is none. I am asking for links to the parts, which have not been provided. There is NO harm in me asking for them. So please just cool it.

[Thaddeus Smith]

my dad can beat up your dad.

[ninjai18]

My dad knows Krav Maga dude....

[Thaddeus Smith]

I went back to Dean's instructions. YOU have to look at the component on your boards and write down the values printed on existing components and purchase the appropriate replacements one from:

 

http://www.parts-express.com/cat/resistors-potentiometers/75?N=21123+4294967118+4294963624&Ne=10166&Nrs=collection%28%29%2Frecord%5Bendeca%3Amatches%28.%2C%22P_PortalID%22%2C%221%22%29+and+endeca%3Amatches%28.%2C%22P_Searchable%22%2C%221%22%29%5D&PortalID=1

 

http://www.parts-express.com/cat/capacitors/68?N=21113+4294967118+4294967060&Ne=10166&Nrs=collection%28%29%2Frecord%5Bendeca%3Amatches%28.%2C%22P_PortalID%22%2C%221%22%29+and+endeca%3Amatches%28.%2C%22P_Searchable%22%2C%221%22%29%5D&PortalID=1

 

 

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/bennic-electrolytic-capacitor-100vdc/?p=catalog&mode=catalog&parent=120&pg=1&CatalogSetSortBy=price

[ninjai18]

Joking aside, I'm just a tired parent of two very young kids. I enjoy the DIY aspect when I have time and energy to experiment, which isn't often. Kids are also not cheap, so that's why I can't pay someone to do it for me or buy new speakers or amps. I just need a list of reasonably priced parts and a little guidance to get a less shrill sound with a smoother tweeter/woofer transition.

[Thaddeus Smith]

I've got a 7 month old and 3 year old. I'm right there with you. I spent about a year buying $8-20 class D amps, swapping out cheap parts for expensive ones, ruining boards, and getting some decent performance. But I had to do a lot of reading and a lot of trial and error. People helped me, but I also took the initiative to answer some of my own questions.

 

 

I just need a list of reasonably priced parts and a little guidance to get a less shrill sound with a smoother tweeter/woofer transition.

 

aha! that will greatly impact the guidance people give you. you many not need to replace every component to achieve your stated goal. or there may not be much that can even be done with that speaker platform to attain the results you want. but at least we know what your goal is..