The BMS mid driver upgrade

[djk]

http://www.communitypro.com/files/literature/spec%20sheets/M200A_SPEC.pdf?phpMyAdmin=c9cc5b3953d87385dc22218d669e7aab

 

400hz~4Khz ±3.2dB (not equalized) on the Community SH494 horn.

 

If you need it to go to 200hz you will need a bigger horn, if you need it to go to 100hz on a huge horn you will want to add some volume under the dome via a cap on the back (like the K55M).

 

The Beyma CP25 is flat down to 2Khz or a little lower, it will be fine crossed at 4Khz for home use (as will a JBL2404 or similar).

 

http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma%20CP25-1.htm

[Deang]

Even with 3rd order, the Beyma gets a little "spitty" at 4kHz.

I would personally love to hear the tweeter that Community uses with the M200, I'm just not ready to mortgage the house again to buy a pair.

Edited September 12, 2014 by DeanG

[jcmusic]

Im running the Volti 260's. I also have the CP25 Beymas, but I don't know if they would drop to 4K. I just updated my X-overs with Deans Super X's, so I will be leaving them be until the cotton grows a little higher. It seems 4K would change the overall spectrum of the CP's that may or may not be to my liking. The CP's are already too hot with my k55's right now and I was looking forward to going a db or two hotter with a two inch mid to make up instead of padding the CP's down, in the end I may have to though to get things balanced. I could live very easily with the 260 wood horns, the K55's and the K77's as it is an excellent combo for my ears, but the grass is always greener. I have been in and out of hobbies all my life, but music and Klipsch speakers have never gone away. I can't think of a better "item" to upgrade or spend money on.  Never thought I would have more money in upgrades for my K's than what I paid for them, but they have come a long way in sound. 

This is exactly what I did to balance out the levels after installing the Fostex 90A tweeters, raised the mid a little for better balance...

[profsbg]

I had to build up the gasket on the old style Community M200 to mount to a flat surface (Volti  horn). Took several gaskets stacked actually. New style M200 doesn't have that issue.

 

Any suggestions on tweeters to use with the M200 other than Beyma CP25 and JBL 2404 with say LR 24 dB cross at 4.0 kHz? I have the Eminence APT 200 which I don't like. Maybe something like QSC PL-000446GP or Denovo SEOS-12 with B&C DE250 or DE10?

 

[jcmusic]

I had the APT200 also and went to the Fostex 90A's big improvement!!!

[Max2]

Even with 3rd order, the Beyma gets a little "spitty" at 4kHz.

I would personally love to hear the tweeter that Community uses with the M200, I'm just not ready to mortgage the house again to buy a pair.

 

 

I may get stoned for this, but I haven't been really giddy over the CP25's. I know they are clearly a better tweeter on paper than the K77, but they overtake the K55 in output and are downright harsh wide open when paired with the K55. Im hoping the BMS driver will get things back to normal with a little tweaking, but its gonna be an expensive venture if these two drivers aren't worth the uno de niro to my weathered ears.

[Max2]

 

Im running the Volti 260's. I also have the CP25 Beymas, but I don't know if they would drop to 4K. I just updated my X-overs with Deans Super X's, so I will be leaving them be until the cotton grows a little higher. It seems 4K would change the overall spectrum of the CP's that may or may not be to my liking. The CP's are already too hot with my k55's right now and I was looking forward to going a db or two hotter with a two inch mid to make up instead of padding the CP's down, in the end I may have to though to get things balanced. I could live very easily with the 260 wood horns, the K55's and the K77's as it is an excellent combo for my ears, but the grass is always greener. I have been in and out of hobbies all my life, but music and Klipsch speakers have never gone away. I can't think of a better "item" to upgrade or spend money on.  Never thought I would have more money in upgrades for my K's than what I paid for them, but they have come a long way in sound. 

This is exactly what I did to balance out the levels after installing the Fostex 90A tweeters, raised the mid a little for better balance...

 

 

How many db do you cut the BMS's Canyonman?   Im assuming I will definitely be want the 16ohm and not the 8 ohm version, correct?

[jcmusic]

 

 

Im running the Volti 260's. I also have the CP25 Beymas, but I don't know if they would drop to 4K. I just updated my X-overs with Deans Super X's, so I will be leaving them be until the cotton grows a little higher. It seems 4K would change the overall spectrum of the CP's that may or may not be to my liking. The CP's are already too hot with my k55's right now and I was looking forward to going a db or two hotter with a two inch mid to make up instead of padding the CP's down, in the end I may have to though to get things balanced. I could live very easily with the 260 wood horns, the K55's and the K77's as it is an excellent combo for my ears, but the grass is always greener. I have been in and out of hobbies all my life, but music and Klipsch speakers have never gone away. I can't think of a better "item" to upgrade or spend money on.  Never thought I would have more money in upgrades for my K's than what I paid for them, but they have come a long way in sound. 

This is exactly what I did to balance out the levels after installing the Fostex 90A tweeters, raised the mid a little for better balance...

 

 

How many db do you cut the BMS's Canyonman?   Im assuming I will definitely be want the 16ohm and not the 8 ohm version, correct?

 

You are correct the 16 ohm version is what I have, I have them attenuated -7db. My room is acousticlly treated and EQ'ed so you may be a little different. I also tried the CP25's and did not really care for them in my current setup...

[Max2]

 

 

 

Im running the Volti 260's. I also have the CP25 Beymas, but I don't know if they would drop to 4K. I just updated my X-overs with Deans Super X's, so I will be leaving them be until the cotton grows a little higher. It seems 4K would change the overall spectrum of the CP's that may or may not be to my liking. The CP's are already too hot with my k55's right now and I was looking forward to going a db or two hotter with a two inch mid to make up instead of padding the CP's down, in the end I may have to though to get things balanced. I could live very easily with the 260 wood horns, the K55's and the K77's as it is an excellent combo for my ears, but the grass is always greener. I have been in and out of hobbies all my life, but music and Klipsch speakers have never gone away. I can't think of a better "item" to upgrade or spend money on.  Never thought I would have more money in upgrades for my K's than what I paid for them, but they have come a long way in sound. 

This is exactly what I did to balance out the levels after installing the Fostex 90A tweeters, raised the mid a little for better balance...

 

 

How many db do you cut the BMS's Canyonman?   Im assuming I will definitely be want the 16ohm and not the 8 ohm version, correct?

 

You are correct the 16 ohm version is what I have, I have them attenuated -7db. My room is acousticlly treated and EQ'ed so you may be a little different. I also tried the CP25's and did not really care for them in my current setup...

 

 

Thanks Canyonman.  I need some walls painted and about 10, 2' X 4'  Acoustic panels and I will be in good shape. I'm hoping the BMS drivers make the same dramatic difference as the Volti 260's did.  

[djk]

"I would personally love to hear the tweeter that Community uses with the M200, I'm just not ready to mortgage the house again to buy a pair."

 

The VHF100 is no longer on offer as a seperate part (although it's used in many current models). I suspect it was just too expensive, even Avantgarde shied away from it and used the Beyma CP380M.

 

I've had issues with the Beyma CP25 (when used for PA), and the JBL2404 is only available (now) on the used market.

 

There are quite a few choices of 1" drivers from BMS, Beyma, B&C, Faital Pro, etc. Having a 4Khz crossover, one is free to choose the driver on its VHF performance, and not have to wonder how well it will handle midrange.

 

In the past I had an account with Community and sold the M200 to many with various JBL 2" drivers. I offered a buy-back if they didn't like the M200, no one ever took me up on that offer. Most of those JBL users had the 2404 as a tweeter, they sold their JBL 2" drivers and pocketed the difference in cost over the M200 cost.

 

The M200 'sounds' better than its measured performance would suggest (maybe we need a meter that measures sound quality?).
 

[Fjd]

There are quite a few choices of 1" drivers from BMS, Beyma, B&C, Faital Pro, etc. Having a 4Khz crossover, one is free to choose the driver on its VHF performance, and not have to wonder how well it will handle midrange.

 

It seems that a few of the B&C compression drivers are already popular for guys on the forum using them in their systems and would be excellent candidates.

 

I've seen several posts by Claude with very favorable comments for the B&C DE10 and B&C DE250 as high frequency drivers.  In addition, I seem to remember that guys were using the B&C DE120 and DE10 with Dave's high frequency tweeter horn with positive results. In addition, the DE10 can currently be found for about $44 each. 

 

B&C DE250-8 1" Polyimide Horn Driver 8 Ohm 2/3-Bolt

Specifications: • Power handling: 60 watts RMS/120 watts program above recommended crossover of 1.6 kHz/12 dB slope • VCdia: 1.7" • Impedance: 8 ohms • Frequency response: 1,000-18,000 Hz • SPL: 108.5 dB 1W/1m • Dimensions: 4.7" diameter x 2.4" depth • Net weight: 4.6 lb. • Replacement diaphragm available.

 

B&C DE120 1" Neodymium Mylar Compression Driver 8 Ohm 2/3-Bolt

Specifications: • Power handling: 20 watts RMS/40 watts program above recommended crossover of 2.0 kHz/12 dB slope • VCdia: 1.4" • Impedance: 8 ohms • Frequency response: 2,000-18,000 Hz • SPL: 106 dB 1W/1m • Dimensions: 2.8" diameter x 1.34" depth • Net weight: 1.0 lb.

 

B&C DE10-8 1" Mylar Horn Compression Driver 8 Ohm 2-Bolt

Specifications: • Power handling: 20 watts RMS/40 watts program above recommended crossover of 2.5 kHz/12 dB slope • VCdia: 1" • Impedance: 8 ohms • Frequency response: 1,500-18,000 Hz • SPL: 107 dB 1W/1m • Dimensions: 3.5" diameter x 2.1" depth • Net weight: 1.8 lb. • Replacement diaphragm available.

[Arash]

Recently we had a big order from Beyma which is shipment pending, now I feel pity I should have ordered a pair of CP380M to test. a part of CP-25 magic is because of it's good controlled directivity. the sound is relax and easy to ear. btw, we buy CP-25s for 45USD/ea.   good to know

[Arash]

I've tested and used B&C CDs. DE-500 is a same compression driver as DE250 but it's lighter in weight and the sound is also identical. I like DE-500 a bit more than DE-250 but DE250 is better known among DIYers.

 

recently we used DE-500 in a project. Blumenhofer Genuin FS2 is a Germany made speaker:

 

 

this is what we built:

 

 

. we build a same-looking speaker with B&C DE-500. the result is very satisfactory: link of video

 

th

Edited September 13, 2014 by Arash

[Max2]

Recently we had a big order from Beyma which is shipment pending, now I feel pity I should have ordered a pair of CP380M to test. a part of CP-25 magic is because of it's good controlled directivity. the sound is relax and easy to ear. btw, we buy CP-25s for 45USD/ea.   good to know

 

Hey Arash. Have you seen the CP25 offered in a vented and non vented pole? I noticed some the other day that were vented and     wondered if they were an updated or newer version. Mine are not vented, but I bought them used and figured they were a few years old. 

[Arash]

Hey Arash. Have you seen the CP25 offered in a vented and non vented pole? I noticed some the other day that were vented and     wondered if they were an updated or newer version. Mine are not vented, but I bought them used and figured they were a few years old. 

 

 

 

Hi

actually I never checked one. I'll check them when they arrive here ~2 weeks latter.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Arash

[djk]

The P-Audio WN-520N can sound even better than either the BMS or Community on a large midrange horn.

 

http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=hug&n=143081&highlight=P-audio+BMS+community&r=&search_url=%2Fcgi%2Fsearch.mpl%3Fsearchtext%3DP-audio%2BBMS%2Bcommunity%26b%3DAND%26topic%3D%26topics_only%3DN%26author%3D%26date1%3D%26date2%3D%26slowmessage%3D%26sort%3Dscore%26sortOrder%3DDESC%26forum%3Dhug

 

Posted 29 August 2013 - 05:18 AM

 

" If this is the case why didn't Paul. W. use a mid bass horn of some sort."

That is something he should have done.

Any kind of 5"~10" cone-driven horn crossed to a good HF driver around 1Khz would have worked better.

I had dialog with a BMS midrange user and mentioned the M200 Community sounded better. He tried it and agreed. I suggested trying a 5" P-Audio cone driver (WN-520N) with a mass corner of 1.7Khz, he did, and it sounded better than the M200. He is using a Beyma HF driver that is quite expensive http://www.usspeaker... tpl150h-1.htm

With a crossover of 1Khz (or higher), the HF driver can be chosen on the basis of its VHF performance (16Khz), rather than its midrange performance (500hz) .

http://www.usspeaker.com/Faital%20Pro%20HF10AK-1.htm

Above graph taken on the Faital Pro LTH102 Tractrix horn.

Many other horn/driver combos are available as well.

[Arash]

if you are looking for options other than compression drivers, Beyma 12p80nd is a killer in linearity and timbre accuracy. soon I'll test a 12p80nd on a fc148 tractrix horn (Oris 150)

 

 

[John Warren]

On the BMS units I've measured, the 8 Ohm version (plotted) measured better than the 16 Ohm.

 

Blue plot is the BMS on a 300Hz horn, no network, raw response from the analyzer.  Microphone about 8ft from throat.

 

Green 4th order band-pass with -6dB corner frequencies at 300Hz and 3.6kHz.  

 

Purple is with -10dB attenuation. 

 

Filter took numerous iterations ("tweaks") between analyzer and the simulator.  Nice response realized however and it can operate at high sound pressures without audible strain.  I would not recommend using a high-pass network on this unit at all.

 

There's better sounding alternatives that are lower cost.

Edited September 13, 2014 by John Warren

[Arash]

anyone has any experience with Radian 950PB or 850PB?

I can buy B&C for good prices but their 2" CDs are not very linear. can anyone explain?

B&C DCM-50 is not listed in their website?

[jcmusic]

 

 

Im running the Volti 260's. I also have the CP25 Beymas, but I don't know if they would drop to 4K. I just updated my X-overs with Deans Super X's, so I will be leaving them be until the cotton grows a little higher. It seems 4K would change the overall spectrum of the CP's that may or may not be to my liking. The CP's are already too hot with my k55's right now and I was looking forward to going a db or two hotter with a two inch mid to make up instead of padding the CP's down, in the end I may have to though to get things balanced. I could live very easily with the 260 wood horns, the K55's and the K77's as it is an excellent combo for my ears, but the grass is always greener. I have been in and out of hobbies all my life, but music and Klipsch speakers have never gone away. I can't think of a better "item" to upgrade or spend money on.  Never thought I would have more money in upgrades for my K's than what I paid for them, but they have come a long way in sound. 

This is exactly what I did to balance out the levels after installing the Fostex 90A tweeters, raised the mid a little for better balance...

 

 

How many db do you cut the BMS's Canyonman?   Im assuming I will definitely be want the 16ohm and not the 8 ohm version, correct?

 

I forgot to  mention it would also depend on what xover you are using, when I was using the ALK Universal's it was -12db. Now I am using custom buitl xovers and it is -7db...