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KPT-1802-HLS vs three THT's


mustang guy

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Hogwash.   Take a perfect cabinet and then drill a 1/4" hole to create a leak and then measure the difference. I think you will be surprised.
C'mon Mike. Don't be so defensive. Everyone knows it's all about location where leaks are concerned.

 

Drilling a hole in the tail pipe of an automobile is a lot different than drilling a hole in the head gasket. 

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I have used non-identical subs for a while.  I have also used identical subs in the same room.  The biggest thing I notice was phase problems around the tunning frequency of the subs when using non-identical subs.  With advance DSP, setting distances, and timing. these problems were fairly easy to overcome.  I have had has much troube integrating identical subs since the behave differently due to their locations.  Great results can be achieved with either configuration.  The key is to group the subs.  For example, I treat two sub A and A 1 as a single sub and B and B 1 as a single sub.  Then I integrate the A and B group of subs.  This is the technique that Mark Seaton of Seaton Submersive uses.

 

He also gain matches the subs to drive all amps the same.  In the small HT, the room is a dominate player in the mix when integrating identical or non-identical subs.  You can't discount Geddes method for 3 subs which I have also used.  Great results can be obtained by his method.

 

I assume you're talking about conventional type subwoofers.

 

Personally i do not recommend mixing those either due to phase issues, by adding horn loading into the mix just adds to the complications.

 

If somebody absolutely has to blend subwoofers don't just hook them up to a plate amp and expect miracles to happen.

 

Phase cancellation is present as is delay complications in a horn loaded design, plan for the worst and hope for the best when mixing cabinets.

 

I am talking about directors from experience.  But, science leads us to the same principals.  I agree that a regular plate amp subs is asking for trouble.  I use advance DSP, PEQ, ect to set things up.  Once the phase around the box tunning is optimize, easy sailing.  I know in theory identical subs are better but, in practice, non-identical subs can achieve the same goal and same results to the ear. :)  A little time a patience is required.  The larger the room and more spread out the subs, a much better room response can be obtained and measured.

Edited by derrickdj1
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Drilling a hole in the tail pipe of an automobile is a lot different than drilling a hole in the head gasket. 

 

 

Great analogy, i like the way you think. :emotion-21:

 

Drilling a hole in a tooth is a lot different than drilling a hole in a moon orbiting HD 106906 b

 

Sorry, there has to be a smart a in every thread.

 

Why is it always me?

Edited by mustang guy
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Hogwash.   Take a perfect cabinet and then drill a 1/4" hole to create a leak and then measure the difference. I think you will be surprised.
C'mon Mike. Don't be so defensive. Everyone knows it's all about location where leaks are concerned.

 

Drilling a hole in the tail pipe of an automobile is a lot different than drilling a hole in the head gasket. 

 

 

So where is the hole the most problematic? If we're talking a 1/4" mounting bolt removed from a 15" driver, then the maximum influence that can have on the output would be around -0.003dB. The whistling it makes will be far more noticeable.

 

It is not uncommon for me to only install 4 bolts when tracking down other real problems and the response plots overlay quite nicely. A 1/4" hole isn't going to explain a +/-6dB issue. The fact that a horn will load to within +/-3dB with the walls of the horn just laying against each other is telling of the sensitivity to this kind of thing. It happens that way because most of the wavefront doesn't even get into the corners of the horn path. The wavefronts like to be more spherically shaped.

 

Btw, I'm not advocating that we build leaky cabinets, nor do I think it is defensive to point out false claims.

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Hogwash.   Take a perfect cabinet and then drill a 1/4" hole to create a leak and then measure the difference. I think you will be surprised.
C'mon Mike. Don't be so defensive. Everyone knows it's all about location where leaks are concerned.

 

Drilling a hole in the tail pipe of an automobile is a lot different than drilling a hole in the head gasket. 

 

 

So where is the hole the most problematic? If we're talking a 1/4" mounting bolt removed from a 15" driver, then the maximum influence that can have on the output would be around -0.003dB. The whistling it makes will be far more noticeable.

 

It is not uncommon for me to only install 4 bolts when tracking down other real problems and the response plots overlay quite nicely. A 1/4" hole isn't going to explain a +/-6dB issue. The fact that a horn will load to within +/-3dB with the walls of the horn just laying against each other is telling of the sensitivity to this kind of thing. It happens that way because most of the wavefront doesn't even get into the corners of the horn path. The wavefronts like to be more spherically shaped.

 

Btw, I'm not advocating that we build leaky cabinets, nor do I think it is defensive to point out false claims.

 

 

A paltry $50 says you're wrong.

 

I have a brand new tested Table Tuba with a RE Audio REX8S4 witch is very similar to the THT in design I would gladly bring over for this test.

 

I suggest one neutral forum member be present for a witness and bet your -0.003dB estimate is very underestimated by at least 100% sounds reasonable.

 

Anybody local neutral forum member willing to be a witness if Mike takes this challenge ?

 

 

The loser also needs to apologize on this thread along with the posted results.

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Good point Claude. They take up roughly the same real estate, but spread out, they wouldn't be quite as intrusive also.

 

Having an HLS1802 inf your living room isn't intrusive...who said that...after all its only about 6x4x3.

Edited by Turbox
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Good point Claude. They take up roughly the same real estate, but spread out, they wouldn't be quite as intrusive also.

 

Having an HLS1802 inf your living room isn't intrusive...who said that...after all its only about 6x4x3.

 

I your case it's a proper wall shrinker with good looks to boot.

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So where is the hole the most problematic?
 The driver cone, the throat of the horn, and for an FLH design, the rear chamber too.

 

Btw, I'm not advocating that we build leaky cabinets
Understood.

 

nor do I think it is defensive to point out false claims.
But that's just it, Jason and I are trying to say we've got experience with this (leaks in the horn path). For horns, it's not a false claim. Leaks are simply bad sound....more to it than just SPL.
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I don't have any rooms big enough to benefit from using a bigger THT, in fact the plan is to eventually build a 18" wide Lab 15 loaded to accompany my pair of La Scala's. Either way is really overkill for a small to medium sized room but a little over the top is something we all crave i think.

 

Could not agree more, my reason for choosing BFM subs was bases soley on seat of the pants and how they tickled the ear hairs. Our Lascalla's will be assisted in the bowels of sub-base by a pair of 22" Table Tuba's. Overkill is so easily controlled.

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A paltry $50 says you're wrong. I have a brand new tested Table Tuba with a RE Audio REX8S4 witch is very similar to the THT in design I would gladly bring over for this test. I suggest one neutral forum member be present for a witness and bet your -0.003dB estimate is very underestimated by at least 100% sounds reasonable. Anybody local neutral forum member willing to be a witness if Mike takes this challenge ? The loser also needs to apologize on this thread along with the posted results.
  

 

 

Apology not necessary, just buy the participants a good lunch and a couple of beers.

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A paltry $50 says you're wrong. I have a brand new tested Table Tuba with a RE Audio REX8S4 witch is very similar to the THT in design I would gladly bring over for this test. I suggest one neutral forum member be present for a witness and bet your -0.003dB estimate is very underestimated by at least 100% sounds reasonable. Anybody local neutral forum member willing to be a witness if Mike takes this challenge ? The loser also needs to apologize on this thread along with the posted results.
  

 

 

Apology not necessary, just buy the participants a good lunch and a couple of beers.

 

 

I have no problem manning up and admitting I'm wrong when I'm wrong and thought an apology would be a nice touch.

 

The $50 would be used for grub & beer for the participants.

Edited by jason str
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  • 4 years later...
2 hours ago, jason str said:

 

Leaks cause poor frequency response and can cause loss of output.

 

If this is not what you were looking for please be more specific.

 I was wondering if anyone came up with a conclusion on the performance of the tht’s vs 1802. 

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54 minutes ago, AHall said:

 I was wondering if anyone came up with a conclusion on the performance of the tht’s vs 1802. 

 

According to the Klipsch data sheet the 1802 can support 130dB on a continuous basis.

 

The THT loaded with the recommended 15" driver can do 126dB, double up the cabinets will add 6 dB = 132 dB. Adding the third cabinet should only add 3 dB or so.

 

Seeing the 1802 is a pro sound cabinet it really should have been compared to the Tuba 60 as they have more in common.

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