Record Pressing Plants Are Wearing Out

[twk123]

The real hope for vinyl (long term) is a sufficient interest in obtaining "tangible" music by the young folks. There would have to be a big enough market among them to make it economically feasible for guys like the one in the article to invest in new facilities or even maintain existing record producing plants. I guess there's hope.

 

My buddy had a Vinyl collection in College about 4 years ago. Lol he also had a bumper sticker that said, "Listen to Vinyl, because you cant roll a joint on an iPod." I think the other issue is that once you hear vinyl and how much better it sounds than most digital it kind of sucks you in. Its more social as well as you all gather around to put a record on and have to listen to it all the way though instead of people hijacking your computer every 3 songs.

[Chris A]

I would think one thing would be for someone to come up with a better vinyl/plastic. Better wear/longevity, higher quality, etc. Even a different way to manufacture the discs.

 

They did: it's called "polycarbonate".

 

Oh, and one last thing...

 

They also switched from mechanical grooves to optically read tracks, so that there is no wear, no pickup issues, no sensitivity to stray magnetic or electric fields--avoiding the need for a needle and magnetic pickup cartridge and an expensive turntable - which are major weak points.  There's also no frequency- or phase-dependent issues, no degradation of the recording quality as the reader reads from the inside tracks of the disc, no need to blend the bass into mono, no need to limit difference in stereo tracks so that the needle doesn't jump out of the grooves, no issues with dust and grime (just wash the discs with tap water) and it even happens to be able to self-correct errors (using something called "parity checking").   Works perfectly.  Cheap to copy on to other discs, too. 

 

I've also found that you can avoid using physical media altogether and just download exact clones of the master tapes to store all the music on the storage medium of your choice-- for immediate playback--without the bother of having to change discs.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Chris A

[seti]

There is something to be said about the ritual of Vinyl playback. Also what you don't get with digital download is album artwork and readable liner notes. That was one of my pet peeves with CD. Another thing to remember is with each change in medium from 78, LP, tape, cd, and digital There is a large collection of music that did not make it from one media to the next. There are some lost treasures out there in 78 and LP world.

 

 

Speaking of vinyl playback check out what forum member HOGFAN built for my Garrard 301 and Jelco 12" tonearm...

10 layers of 13 ply baltic birch weighing in at 50lbs.

When I get back home I'll buy some Walnut veneer for this beauty.

HOGFAN ROCKS!!!!!!

[Marvel]

 

I would think one thing would be for someone to come up with a better vinyl/plastic. Better wear/longevity, higher quality, etc. Even a different way to manufacture the discs.

 

They did: it's called "polycarbonate".

 

Oh, and one last thing...

 

They also switched from mechanical grooves to optically read tracks, so that there is no wear, no pickup issues, no sensitivity to stray magnetic or electric fields--avoiding the need for a needle and magnetic pickup cartridge and an expensive turntable - which are major weak points.  There's also no frequency- or phase-dependent issues, no degradation of the recording quality as the reader reads from the inside tracks of the disc, no need to blend the bass into mono, no need to limit difference in stereo tracks so that the needle doesn't jump out of the grooves, no issues with dust and grime (just wash the discs with tap water) and it even happens to be able to self-correct errors (using something called "parity checking").   Works perfectly.  Cheap to copy on to other discs, too. 

 

I've also found that you can avoid using physical media altogether and just download exact clones of the master tapes to store all the music on the storage medium of your choice-- for immediate playback--without the bother of having to change discs.

 

 

That is totally beside the point. If people want to have an analogue system, the medium itself could be improved. I understand your humor, though.

[Chris A]

There is a large collection of music that did not make it from one media to the next. There are some lost treasures out there in 78 and LP world.

We can certainly agree on this point, and this is the reason why I never sold any of my vinyl records, and why I bought a much better turntable/cartridge/phono preamp to play the ones that either didn't make it to digital or I didn't really want to upgrade. 

 

Some of the Philips, Decca, DG, Archiv, and other labels still sound really good to my ears.  I have a lot of long-unheard classical albums from the late 70s/early 80s that are like buried treasure. As I pull many of these out of their sleeves--still in pristine condition, static still clings to the poly inner sleeves and the albums, to be played for perhaps the first time.  Good stuff.

 

When I was younger, time was in short supply working for the other guy, but now living is center stage and music is the greater portion of that. 

 

I believe that this is a signature issue of the 21st century: knowing when to stop wasting time on increasing one's stash by trading away one's time and health (due to stress and sleep deprivation).

 

A good article that helped to focus my thinking on this subject:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/03/top-5-regrets-of-the-dying_n_3640593.html

Edited November 6, 2014 by Chris A

[Chris A]

Perhaps the format of the web is not really appropriate for this topic (i.e., vinyl apologetics)...after all, the web is digital.

 

Thebes, perhaps the best place for discussing this subject is in the medium of Linotype-set printed paper? It'd be a more appropriate format, don't you think? 

 

Edited November 6, 2014 by Chris A

[Don Richard]

Thebes, perhaps the best place for discussing this subject is in the medium of Linotype-set printed paper? It'd be a more appropriate format, don't you think?

 

More like chiseled stone tablets.

[Chris A]

 

Sorry - I couldn't resist...back to your regularly-scheduled programming...

Edited November 6, 2014 by Chris A

[thebes]

Ok revenue from the industry is down 50%.  It's a good thing you have plenty of music already saved up because getting good new music may become a thing of the past when the artists/producers, songwriters get less then a mil whenever you streamers play their music.

 

So tell me when you worked, or those who still work, did you or do you give away your labor for free?  I kinda doubt it since you all seem to have a lot more disposal income than some schlub like me. 

 

If you like cd's you probably also like coffee. The one set of jitters counteracts the other.

 

Also, I'm really sorry Chris, but you really don't seem to have a clue as to just how torturous the signal path is for streamed music or cd's. If you really think you are getting an exact copy of the master tape presented to your ears from a digital signal path you are smoking more crack then DC's former Mayor, Marion Berry.

 

Here's a diagram of a really simple cd player.  Don't even get me started on DAC's and computer sound cards. I have a friend who owns a recording studio. His sound card cost two or 3 thousand, the minimum he says he needs to even come close to getting good sound out of the internet. Yet you guys are pulling this off of the intenet probably using some mass market Dell or iThisorThat thingy. Good luck.

 

 

[joshnich]

http://www.hypebot.com/hypebot/2014/11/the-vinyl-revival-infographic.html

[Chris A]

I'm really sorry Chris, but you really don't seem to have a clue as to just how torturous the signal path is for streamed music or cd's. If you really think you are getting an exact copy of the master tape presented to your ears from a digital signal path you are smoking more crack then (sic) DC's former Mayor, Marion Berry.

Your background doesn't extend to subjects like information theory and digital signal processing, right?  (If it had, I'd've thought that you'd had a recent cerebrovascular accident and just had forgotten some really important things.)

 

I really don't know how to respond without:

1. offering a full primer on the subject of information theory for starters,
2. inadvertently insulting you, or
3. both.

 

To be safe, I'll just abstain and pleasantly recommend any text on the subject in the most friendly manner possible.  These books can be freely downloaded from the web. 

 

[twk123]

Ok revenue from the industry is down 50%.  It's a good thing you have plenty of music already saved up because getting good new music may become a thing of the past when the artists/producers, songwriters get less then a mil whenever you streamers play their music.

 

So tell me when you worked, or those who still work, did you or do you give away your labor for free?  I kinda doubt it since you all seem to have a lot more disposal income than some schlub like me. 

 

If you like cd's you probably also like coffee. The one set of jitters counteracts the other.

 

Also, I'm really sorry Chris, but you really don't seem to have a clue as to just how torturous the signal path is for streamed music or cd's. If you really think you are getting an exact copy of the master tape presented to your ears from a digital signal path you are smoking more crack then DC's former Mayor, Marion Berry.

 

Here's a diagram of a really simple cd player.  Don't even get me started on DAC's and computer sound cards. I have a friend who owns a recording studio. His sound card cost two or 3 thousand, the minimum he says he needs to even come close to getting good sound out of the internet. Yet you guys are pulling this off of the intenet probably using some mass market Dell or iThisorThat thingy. Good luck.

 

Musicians still get money from live gigs like the old days. Look at Pretty Lights, he gives his music away for free online and makes all his money off his tours. He did also sell out his newest album in Vinyl. Digital has allowed smaller artists to get their name out without signing major record deals and selling their souls to bland music for the masses. That being said, digital has to be done right with a good source material and DAC which is something that has been largely lost by my generation. I am happy with my digital setup and it sounds compatible to vinyl to my ears. Vinyl is important though in that it forces you to step back and focus on all the aspects of music in an analogue way such as tracking force, leveling, angle etc. This makes you a more critical listener so you focus more on fidelity if you decide to get into digital again.

[thebes]

 

Ok revenue from the industry is down 50%.  It's a good thing you have plenty of music already saved up because getting good new music may become a thing of the past when the artists/producers, songwriters get less then a mil whenever you streamers play their music.

 

So tell me when you worked, or those who still work, did you or do you give away your labor for free?  I kinda doubt it since you all seem to have a lot more disposal income than some schlub like me. 

 

If you like cd's you probably also like coffee. The one set of jitters counteracts the other.

 

Also, I'm really sorry Chris, but you really don't seem to have a clue as to just how torturous the signal path is for streamed music or cd's. If you really think you are getting an exact copy of the master tape presented to your ears from a digital signal path you are smoking more crack then DC's former Mayor, Marion Berry.

 

Here's a diagram of a really simple cd player.  Don't even get me started on DAC's and computer sound cards. I have a friend who owns a recording studio. His sound card cost two or 3 thousand, the minimum he says he needs to even come close to getting good sound out of the internet. Yet you guys are pulling this off of the intenet probably using some mass market Dell or iThisorThat thingy. Good luck.

 

Musicians still get money from live gigs like the old days. Look at Pretty Lights, he gives his music away for free online and makes all his money off his tours. He did also sell out his newest album in Vinyl. Digital has allowed smaller artists to get their name out without signing major record deals and selling their souls to bland music for the masses. That being said, digital has to be done right with a good source material and DAC which is something that has been largely lost by my generation. I am happy with my digital setup and it sounds compatible to vinyl to my ears. Vinyl is important though in that it forces you to step back and focus on all the aspects of music in an analogue way such as tracking force, leveling, angle etc. This makes you a more critical listener so you focus more on fidelity if you decide to get into digital again.

 

A very nice reasoned observation.

 

Now go away were having a donney-brook here.

[thebes]

 

I'm really sorry Chris, but you really don't seem to have a clue as to just how torturous the signal path is for streamed music or cd's. If you really think you are getting an exact copy of the master tape presented to your ears from a digital signal path you are smoking more crack then (sic) DC's former Mayor, Marion Berry.

Your background doesn't extend to subjects like information theory and digital signal processing, right?  (If it had, I'd've thought that you'd had a recent cerebrovascular accident and just had forgotten some really important things.)

 

I really don't know how to respond without:

1. offering a full primer on the subject of information theory for starters,
2. inadvertently insulting you, or
3. both.

 

To be safe, I'll just abstain and pleasantly recommend any text on the subject in the most friendly manner possible.  These books can be freely downloaded from the web. 

 

 

Insult away, which you already have by implying I can't possibly tell the difference in the sound of a song without understanding information theory. If you think things like math and information theory will win the day, then you ears are made of tin!

 

Ok let's get into simple signal paths.

 

Vinyl. Spin record. Drop needle on record.  Diamond sends signal which is amplified by a couple of magnets and sent via four wires to preamp (for stereo) Only moving part, the cantilever.

 

Stream a song.  Access a site halfway around world, acquire an information file composed of thousands of zeros and ones/   Route through several dozens severs, through their spinning harddrives, via an additional thousands of miles of copper and optical cable to a computer with a constantly fluctuating voltage supply onthe power rails, and then send it to this, the most simplistic circuit for a sound card I could find, and then to preamp. 

[Chris A]

Insult away, which you already have by implying...

No insults intended - in fact, that was precisely what I was trying to avoid.

 

I believe that your plight is a very common reason why we have so many misunderstandings on the subject of digital audio and video.

 

I still recommend reading up on the subject a bit more before you post more on that particular topic: a friendly gesture only, in particular--parity checking and error correction vis-a-vis resistance to signal degradation vs. analog noise accumulation (very different worlds), how DACs actually convert digital words to analog output, and the real performance drivers between DACs and their clocks.

 

I haven't an axe to grind on this subject but I also find it difficult to pass by obvious misinformation without making some sort of effort to present an alternative view that's much closer to the truth.

 

Chris

Edited November 7, 2014 by Chris A

[thebes]

 

Insult away, which you already have by implying...

No insults intended - in fact, that was precisely what I was trying to avoid.

 

I believe that your plight is a very common reason why we have so many misunderstandings on the subject of digital audio and video.

 

I still recommend reading up on the subject a bit more before you post more on that particular topic: a friendly gesture only, in particular--parity checking and error correction vis-a-vis resistance to signal degradation vs. analog noise accumulation (very different worlds), how DACs actually convert digital words to analog output, and the real performance drivers between DACs and their clocks.

 

I haven't an axe to grind on this subject but I also find it difficult to pass by obvious misinformation without making some sort of effort to present an alternative view that's much closer to the truth.

 

Chris

 

Well you're no fun at all!  Acting like a gentleman and all.  I'm sure it's a dodge.

 

Why?  Well just a post or two ago, you raised the specter of me as an old-fogey Luddite.

 

First of all, I know a couple of people who discuss papyrus scrolls on the intent, then the they wander off into discussing particle physics. Does that make them archaic, wierd, or simply using the medium to move the exchange of ideas along a bit faster?  Do the people who refer to Luddites actually have any actual understanding of the history of Luddites, The English Enclosure Acts, the reaction to the disenfranchisement of millions by the wealthy to force them off the land fill their factories and mines?  Squeezed into industrial ghettos cast aside by newer machines, no unions no social network, no job and the very real possibility of watching their children starve.

 

But I digress,. After all this is not a History forum, and if it were, we'd have  failing grade.

 

Look I understand a bit about packets, conversions, etc.  but you seem to have  a naive faith in the digital stream to deliver a real product to your ears.

 

I don't know about you, but ever since we converted to digital television, I often experience a momentary breakup of the picture, I suspect an attempt by the signal to render itself back into it's native zeros and ones.  I even experience this phenomenon while watching downloaded streamed Netflix, flics. Not to mention other aspect of TV viewing like crashes, spikes, digital snow etc.

 

Can you honestly tell me that these things do not occur simply because you are streaming music rather than video?

 

Come on now, if you are going to have  dialogue, please admit that sometimes the emperor has no clothes, nor much of a real sound come to think of it.

Edited November 8, 2014 by thebes

[Thaddeus Smith]

There is something to be said about the ritual of Vinyl playback. Also what you don't get with digital download is album artwork and readable liner notes. That was one of my pet peeves with CD. Another thing to remember is with each change in medium from 78, LP, tape, cd, and digital There is a large collection of music that did not make it from one media to the next. There are some lost treasures out there in 78 and LP world.

 

 

Speaking of vinyl playback check out what forum member HOGFAN built for my Garrard 301 and Jelco 12" tonearm...

10 layers of 13 ply baltic birch weighing in at 50lbs.

When I get back home I'll buy some Walnut veneer for this beauty.

HOGFAN ROCKS!!!!!!

 

I've always like those thick DIY plywood plinths - I'm planning to do something similar for my laptop + dac + amp. sort of a nod to these types of turntable projects but for my modern components.