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Fix Pioneer Elite M90 or get new Emotiva Amplifiers


jarrod2750

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I've got Parasound separates on my CW III's in our 2 channel system and they are very good and recommended. The price range is not out of the question based on what you stated. I would not even consider Emo if I could swing Parasound. If I couldn't do that, I'd go with Marantz integrated (PM8005 or PM6005), which matches up well with Klipsch and has more that enough power. Best of luck. Chuck.

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Now wait, Im trying here It looks to me like you're just adding another "volume knob" downstream of the pre for the signal. I totally get killing an idle hiss with this, but how have you improved or cleaned the sound the amp is producing at 1watt or full power?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sure you have heard of signal to noise ratio. When the signal is very low then you are sending a low signal to noise ratio into the amp. The amp can be CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN...............but unfortunately it makes no difference because the signal being fed already has the noise IN IT. The amp will be noisy because it is amplifying a noisy signal. You want to use A LOT of your preamp.........and only A LITTLE of your amp.........only what you need to get it to the loudest you will ever listen. That will more than likely be less than half way on teh knob. WHen you do this...........you will not here the HISS because the singal to noise ratio is HIGH.

 

Real world example...my amp's input sensitivity is 1.2v for full power.  Now, the portion of the input that accounts for the noise is a fraction of a volt and constant, let's call it x; the music signal is anything above that up to 1.2v, for a best case s/n of 1.2/x.  Now I adjust the "gain" control or input sensitivity control on my amp so it requires 2v for full output.  Note that 2/x > 1.2/x.  The amps only give what they get, so give them the higher s/n signal. 

 

IIRC, those Emo amps only require ~0.7v for full power, which means less wiggle room, the noise is inevitably closer to being audible. 

 

 

Uh....No  :)   The signal that feeds the amp is at X volts.  Now let's talk about what's in it.  If you can provide the amp X volts of music with no noise component that would be ideal.  Then, when you attenuate the signal at the amp you are simply reducing the voltage of a clean signal.  It's gonna sound clean assuming you have a clean amp.

 

So how do you provide the amp the cleanest signal.  There are lots of ways.  I am assuming a preamp is being used.  Forum member Shakey uses a passive method that sounds good to me.  He matches components carefully.  But if a lot of the gain of a clean preamp is used you are going to have a clean signal with a high sig/noise hit the amp.  So even is you want to listen at low levels you would be turning the preamp up quite a bit and attenuating at the amp.  Using a lot of the preamp gain ensures the high sig/noise at the amp.

 

OK..........so now you NO GAIN CONTROLS on the amp, and you want to listen to low level music.  Well we already covered this, but low preamp gain leaves low sig/noise and your amp is presented with a more "dirty" signal.  You will hear it, no matter how clean your amp is.........and especially with Klipsch sensitivities.

 

The way Shakey solves it is to skip the preamp and use a lower level signal into the amp...........but have the amp matched to it from a sensitivity and impedance standpoint..........skipping any distortion of the preamp and bascially feeding the source directly into the amp.  With Klipsch sensitivities and if done properly, this is technically superior on paper.  Less components in the signal path.

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No?  I think we're saying the same thing, in essence if not the printed word.  If you call the whole of the input signal 'X', the noise component will still be a fixed amount at a tiny fraction of that, whatever you label it, and the hotter you can get that signal the better the s/n.  Bottom line, if the amp requires more voltage to attain the desired volumes, whether the user is cranking it or listening at modest levels, then the pre-amp/source/whatever will necessarily have to deliver a hotter signal and thus better s/n.  All of us using more sensitive speakers should aim to gain stage their rigs exactly as you described. 

 

My tube amp is the only amp I presently own that has low input sensitivity, so I can and do on occasion run it as Shakey describes: source (full hot), directly into the amp (w/ passive attenuator for volume control), to the speakers.  It sounds fantastic, if lacking in convenience (no remote control!) or tune-ability (no pre, no tone controls, no eq).

 

To Jarrod, if it were my money, I would go with THIS  over the Parasound or Emo.  You would have that amplifier dilemma solved for the next decade or two.  

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All things that are unnecessary, and some that actually degrade sonics.

 

Au contraire.  Any speakers when placed in an enclosed room benefit from eq, most importantly the band below where room modes start to exert their influence.  Ideally, this is achieved passively, via careful consideration and treatment of acoustic issues and proper placement, so in a sense I completely agree, such things as eq/tone controls should be unnecessary.  But my rooms aren't perfect, and I'm not afraid of a little active eq'ing if necessary, which I do in the digital realm anyway so there is really no down side.

Edited by Ski Bum
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Looks like I narrowed my options down to either the Parasound 2125 or the Emotiva XPA -2.  I'm leaning towards the Parasound.

 

Great choice in the 2125.  I had one with the matching 2100 preamp and it was awesome with my RB-35's and Heresys.  I sold it shortly after picking it up for financial reasons.  

 

Another audio regret. :(

 

Bill

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No?  I think we're saying the same thing, in essence if not the printed word.  If you call the whole of the input signal 'X', the noise component will still be a fixed amount at a tiny fraction of that, whatever you label it, and the hotter you can get that signal the better the s/n.  Bottom line, if the amp requires more voltage to attain the desired volumes, whether the user is cranking it or listening at modest levels, then the pre-amp/source/whatever will necessarily have to deliver a hotter signal and thus better s/n.  All of us using more sensitive speakers should aim to gain stage their rigs exactly as you described. 

 

My tube amp is the only amp I presently own that has low input sensitivity, so I can and do on occasion run it as Shakey describes: source (full hot), directly into the amp (w/ passive attenuator for volume control), to the speakers.  It sounds fantastic, if lacking in convenience (no remote control!) or tune-ability (no pre, no tone controls, no eq).

 

To Jarrod, if it were my money, I would go with THIS  over the Parasound or Emo.  You would have that amplifier dilemma solved for the next decade or two.  

 

Yes.

 

So we agree assuming clean preamp, and clean amp..........it's best to use MOST of the gain of the preamp (all you can), and least of the gain of the amp (lowest amount you can)........wiht Klipsch.

 

So amps without gain controls.......like EMO's..........force the owners to do EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE..........which was my whole point in commenting in this thread.  Simply wrong for Klipsch........from a gain structure and noise floor standpoint.  :)

Edited by mark1101
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