Am I missing something?

[oscarsear]

My apologies for a bit of a downer thread on this day of celebration.  But..........  Here locally we've experienced a spate of police lethal force applications that seem pretty heavy handed.  Let me share the most recent story just so that I can have your thoughts.

 

Late one evening a man decided that he needed to take his 35 y/o girlfriend to the hospital.  She had a history of mental troubles and was becoming violent/suicidal.  He called the hospital in advance of their arrival and warned them that he was coming, about her mindset and that she'd armed herself with a knife.  Naturally the hospital called the police.  When the couple arrive 3 police officers are on the scene and the lady is berserk, aggressive and challenged them with her knife, refusing to follow commands to cease, etc.  They shoot her from a distance of 10 feet with an AR-15 rifle and a Glock pistol.  She is hit 5 times - dead.  Review of force report exonerates the officers actions citing peril, fear, etc............  As an aside, the woman was pregnant (unknown by the police at the time).

 

Later it is learned that at least one of the officers on site had brandished a taser and had it ready to use.  The taser was put away and a gun was drawn, etc.........  No tasers were used but they were available and at least this one unit was ready to go.

 

Why wasn't the taser used?  I've posed this question in our local papers and the pundits just do not respond.  There are no issues of race involved.  But this is another example of the application of lethal force where the justification is a level of peril demanding the full application of death dealing guns.  No nets, no batons, no wait for back up, no tasers......... just 'I feel unsafe' so I have the authority to shoot to kill. and away we go - wild west - John Rambo stuff.  It was a nutso lady with a knife.  Did they think she was a trained commando, a skilled knife thrower?  Am I missing something?

 

Can we discourse on this here and not have the thread locked out?

[jjptkd]

 Sounds like a horrible situation and yes, one would think there could of been several non lethal ways to handle it. Its hard to say without actually being there though, maybe she charged one of the officers? A crazy person with a knife is a very dangerous and scary situation, female or not.

 

 There was a just a fatal police shooting of a 12 year old with a fake gun in a playground recently. Latest reports say they shot the kid within 2 seconds of seeing the gun, which turned out to be a toy.

[babadono]

You are not missing anything. The police in this case applied lethal force before it was necessary. No police had been assalted just felt threatened. Let me see..... She's got a knife, they've got a guns, who's gonna win that battle if it comes down to it? Yes she should have been tased first.

[Marvel]

We have become a police state and you no longer have any rights.

[oscarsear]

In my life I've not had many dealings with police.  When I was 18 I was at a party with a friend, in the not best part of Los Angeles.  We got separated and I'd gone out front for some unrelated reason and found him being overwhelmed in a fist fight with 2 other guys.  It was not pretty. At the same time I came upon the scene 2 uniformed officers we running to the melee.  The 2 guys saw the approaching police and fled.  They were Long Beach City Sheriffs and they did not stop to check on us. They pursued these guys and we heard that altercation take place in the dark.  After a short while all 4 of them returned and the lumps and bruises were clearly evident on the cuffed assailants.  Done deal........ bruised egos or maybe a little worse but nothing more.

 

These days I'm not so sure this would have the same outcome.

[oldenough]

I certainly don't know the answer to this problem, but it is a problem also here in Canada. I do believe the investigation of any police involved shooting should be carried out by an independent agency. The case involving the 13 yr old with the fake gun is a difficult one, I saw the video, and that "kid" was just asking to be shot by behaving in the way he was. I'm not being un-caring when I say that, but the police simply weren't given the time to assess the threat, all they saw was him pulling the gun from his waist. A darn shame a life was taken, but I think any kid nowadays knows that even waving a fake gun around is not a wise thing to do.

[wvu80]

 

Late one evening a man decided that he needed to take his 35 y/o girlfriend to the hospital.  She had a history of mental troubles and was becoming violent/suicidal.  He called the hospital in advance of their arrival and warned them that he was coming, about her mindset and that she'd armed herself with a knife.  Naturally the hospital called the police.  When the couple arrive 3 police officers are on the scene and the lady is berserk, aggressive and challenged them with her knife, refusing to follow commands to cease, etc.  They shoot her from a distance of 10 feet with an AR-15 rifle and a Glock pistol.  She is hit 5 times - dead.  Review of force report exonerates the officers actions citing peril, fear, etc............  As an aside, the woman was pregnant (unknown by the police at the time).

 

Later it is learned that at least one of the officers on site had brandished a taser and had it ready to use.  The taser was put away and a gun was drawn, etc.........  No tasers were used but they were available and at least this one unit was ready to go.

 

Why wasn't the taser used?  (snip)  Did they think she was a trained commando, a skilled knife thrower?  Am I missing something?

 

 

 

Yes, you are missing something; the knowledge and training of a skilled police officer.  I don't say that flippantly, as you are obviously intelligent and thoughtful, but I want to make the point, there are things about police training you don't know. 

 

The police don't just show up to a call and then try to figure out what to do, they 1) show up with the idea of resolving the situation peacefully, but are capable of responding to a show of force according to their training, and 2) they have a professional goal to safeguard the public, not just the perpetrator, and 3) they have a personal goal of going home safely at the end of the shift.

 

As to your second question, you ask "why wasn't taser used?"  There is an effective range in which a taser can be used with I think is within 5-10 feet feet, as there is an effective range police know a knife wielding person can attack, which is I think around 30 feet.  The bottom line is you don't bring a taser to a knife fight.  Tasers do NOT always incapacitate, and tactically they are not the appropriate response to a knife wielding person.

[oldenough]

 

 

Late one evening a man decided that he needed to take his 35 y/o girlfriend to the hospital.  She had a history of mental troubles and was becoming violent/suicidal.  He called the hospital in advance of their arrival and warned them that he was coming, about her mindset and that she'd armed herself with a knife.  Naturally the hospital called the police.  When the couple arrive 3 police officers are on the scene and the lady is berserk, aggressive and challenged them with her knife, refusing to follow commands to cease, etc.  They shoot her from a distance of 10 feet with an AR-15 rifle and a Glock pistol.  She is hit 5 times - dead.  Review of force report exonerates the officers actions citing peril, fear, etc............  As an aside, the woman was pregnant (unknown by the police at the time).

 

Later it is learned that at least one of the officers on site had brandished a taser and had it ready to use.  The taser was put away and a gun was drawn, etc.........  No tasers were used but they were available and at least this one unit was ready to go.

 

Why wasn't the taser used?  (snip)  Did they think she was a trained commando, a skilled knife thrower?  Am I missing something?

 

 

 

Yes, you are missing something; the knowledge and training of a skilled police officer.  I don't say that flippantly, as you are obviously intelligent and thoughtful, but I want to make the point, there are things about police training you don't know. 

 

The police don't just show up to a call and then try to figure out what to do, they 1) show up with the idea of resolving the situation peacefully, but are capable of responding to a show of force according to their training, and 2) they have a professional goal to safeguard the public, not just the perpetrator, and 3) they have a personal goal of going home safely at the end of the shift.

 

As to your second question, you ask "why wasn't taser used?"  There is an effective range in which a taser can be used with I think is within 5-10 feet feet, as there is an effective range police know a knife wielding person can attack, which is I think around 30 feet.  The bottom line is you don't bring a taser to a knife fight.  Tasers do NOT always incapacitate, and tactically they are not the appropriate response to a knife wielding person.

 

Does common sense come into play anywhere ?

[wvu80]

 Sounds like a horrible situation and yes, one would think there could of been several non lethal ways to handle it. Its hard to say without actually being there though, maybe she charged one of the officers? A crazy person with a knife is a very dangerous and scary situation, female or not.

 

 There was a just a fatal police shooting of a 12 year old with a fake gun in a playground recently. Latest reports say they shot the kid within 2 seconds of seeing the gun, which turned out to be a toy.

 

My oldest son is a police officer and he saw that story as well, and we talked about it.  The reports you saw left out a few facts.

The police responded to a call of a PERSON with a gun.  When they confronted the boy, he had an air soft pistel in his waistband.  they ordered him to stop and put his hands in the air, at which time he went to his waist to pull out the gun.  That's when he was shot.

 

My younger son has SEVERAL air soft pistols.  for those of you who do not have boys, that pistol is made of plastic, just like the real guns, such as Glocks, and they are VERY large, and they are VERY real looking, with no red caps on the end to identify them as toys.  I guarantee you that no one reading this can tell an air soft from a real gun without holding it in his hand and looking at it, and I doubt that any professional law enforcement could make that judgement either, especially from distance. (one gun below is the Glock 22 (.40 caliber, which is what the police use) and the other is an air soft gun.

[Marvel]

Legally, all toy guns must have the orange tip on the barrel. Since it was removed, it looks like a real gun. I certainly don't fault the responding police. What if I paint the end of my M9 with orange. Now it looks like a toy. Is that legal?

 

It is a no win situation. I have friends and relatives in law enforcement, but more and more, the citizen is the loser.

[oscarsear]

 

 

Late one evening a man decided that he needed to take his 35 y/o girlfriend to the hospital.  She had a history of mental troubles and was becoming violent/suicidal.  He called the hospital in advance of their arrival and warned them that he was coming, about her mindset and that she'd armed herself with a knife.  Naturally the hospital called the police.  When the couple arrive 3 police officers are on the scene and the lady is berserk, aggressive and challenged them with her knife, refusing to follow commands to cease, etc.  They shoot her from a distance of 10 feet with an AR-15 rifle and a Glock pistol.  She is hit 5 times - dead.  Review of force report exonerates the officers actions citing peril, fear, etc............  As an aside, the woman was pregnant (unknown by the police at the time).

 

Later it is learned that at least one of the officers on site had brandished a taser and had it ready to use.  The taser was put away and a gun was drawn, etc.........  No tasers were used but they were available and at least this one unit was ready to go.

 

Why wasn't the taser used?  (snip)  Did they think she was a trained commando, a skilled knife thrower?  Am I missing something?

 

 

 

Yes, you are missing something; the knowledge and training of a skilled police officer.  I don't say that flippantly, as you are obviously intelligent and thoughtful, but I want to make the point, there are things about police training you don't know. 

 

The police don't just show up to a call and then try to figure out what to do, they 1) show up with the idea of resolving the situation peacefully, but are capable of responding to a show of force according to their training, and 2) they have a professional goal to safeguard the public, not just the perpetrator, and 3) they have a personal goal of going home safely at the end of the shift.

 

As to your second question, you ask "why wasn't taser used?"  There is an effective range in which a taser can be used with I think is within 5-10 feet feet, as there is an effective range police know a knife wielding person can attack, which is I think around 30 feet.  The bottom line is you don't bring a taser to a knife fight.  Tasers do NOT always incapacitate, and tactically they are not the appropriate response to a knife wielding person.

 

A knife can be lethal @ 30 feet?  Okay......  not trying to grind a point, but .......... if this was a 10 y/o girl with a knife just as unruly, do they shoot?  A 4 y/o?  Sometime common sense has got to prevail.  A buffed, skin head wielding a serious blade as opposed to a maniacal lady with a filet knife.  They were expecting her.  Why not attempt the taser and if that fails use the bullets?  The decision to shoot seems to come all too easily and they know they''ll not be held to civilian standards.

 

Regarding the 12 y/o with the airfsoft pistol....... I feel bad for the police who did shoot the boy.  I've seen the video too and the little guy just did the wrong move at the worst time.  Why the little guy had that thing in the 1st place amazes me. 

[oldenough]

 

 

It is a no win situation. I have friends and relatives in law enforcement, but more and more, the citizen is the loser.

Yes, and the statistics back you up.

[mike stehr]

Couldn't they just shoot her in the leg? Now she's on the ground screaming in pain...she can't attack. No more threat.

 

Was this ever on the local news?

[oldenough]

Couldn't they just shoot her in the leg? Now she's on the ground screaming in pain...she can't attack. No more threat.

 

Was this ever on the local news?

No this would not follow their training, they are obliged to shoot at the largest area of the target, and keep shooting till the threat is stopped.

[oscarsear]

Was this ever on the local news?

Yeah, google up - Jeanetta Riley........  Sandpoint, Idaho

[wvu80]

 

As to your second question, you ask "why wasn't taser used?"  There is an effective range in which a taser can be used with I think is within 5-10 feet feet, as there is an effective range police know a knife wielding person can attack, which is I think around 30 feet.  The bottom line is you don't bring a taser to a knife fight.  Tasers do NOT always incapacitate, and tactically they are not the appropriate response to a knife wielding person.

 

 

A knife can be lethal @ 30 feet?  Okay......  not trying to grind a point, but .......... if this was a 10 y/o girl with a knife just as unruly, do they shoot?

 

You point is completely valid, but I did not explain very well, the way it was explained to me.  I agreed with you on the distance, until my son the cop explained it to me.  It's not that someone can throw a knife, but studies have been done and a person with a knife can close that 30 foot gap in less than two seconds, and even if the person were shot, it might not stop someone from stabbing and killing the officer.

 

 A 4 y/o?  Sometime common sense has got to prevail.  A buffed, skin head wielding a serious blade as opposed to a maniacal lady with a filet knife.  They were expecting her.  Why not attempt the taser and if that fails use the bullets?  The decision to shoot seems to come all too easily and they know they''ll not be held to civilian standards.

 

Believe me, I appreciate the point, but I've been in the professional situation (social worker) where I worked with a knife-wielding 12 yo girl who was threatening to cut herself (she held the knife to her own throat because she wanted to run away from home and her mother would not let her), but if she stabs you and hits an artery, you can be just as dead as if a trained killer did it. 

 

In my case the girl was in her house, the mother was there, and when the cops came the situation was VERY much more controlled, due to a small room, no easy egress, and no members of the public were present.  We talked her into putting the knife down, and she was transported to a residential (mental) hospital immediately afterwards with her mother and by ambulance, and I think this was her 3rd or 4th short-term (week to 10 days) residential hospitalization.

 

And I'd like to make the point, it was the law enforcement guys who talked her down, not me.  The 911 call brought a sheriff deputy, a WV state trooper, and the first cop to respond (in about 3 minutes) was a WV Conservation officer, who also carries a gun.  Not one of these guys drew a gun, and the deputy was a father, who told the girl he had a daughter just like her, and how sad he would be if anything ever hurt her.  Nobody yelled, it was all very caring talk from these men that deescalated the situation,  ALL of these law enforcement guys came across as human beings, and it was they who really helped this little girl.  And no, this did not make it into the headlines of the newspaper.

 

Regarding the 12 y/o with the airfsoft pistol....... I feel bad for the police who did shoot the boy.  I've seen the video too and the little guy just did the wrong move at the worst time.  Why the little guy had that thing in the 1st place amazes me. 

 

My son has two airsoft pistols, plus a machine gun, a shotgun...all airsoft.  And his buddies all had the same, which they played with in our house when they were younger, years ago.  We are still picking up those stupid plastic air soft BB's!  But they are VERY realistic looking, and they take those RED or ORANGE tips off, or paint they black with a magic marker.  In hindsight, I should have not allowed that, but, that is what the kids did, and you CANNOT tell them from a real gun.

 

To the point of yours I bolded, I know I've been clinical or analytical in my responses, but those things disturb me greatly, and I can't watch those kind of videos.  It is an incredible tragedy for a young person, even a hardened young person (I don't know that kid's circumstances, but I have seen really dangerous 12 year-olds) to have to suffer the ultimate penalty, because of the bad judgements young people all make.

 

Edited November 27, 2014 by wvu80

[mike stehr]

 

Couldn't they just shoot her in the leg? Now she's on the ground screaming in pain...she can't attack. No more threat.

 

Was this ever on the local news?

No this would not follow their training, they are obliged to shoot at the largest area of the target, and keep shooting till the threat is stopped.

 

 

It doesn't surprise me in the least that this would be the standard law enforcement protocol for north Idaho.

Edited November 27, 2014 by mike stehr

[mustang guy]

Let me start first by saying that I know NOTHING about this. It is my opinion from far away. 

 

In my opinion, it may be that it is the police training is the thing that fails the cadets. I liken it to nurse training. The underlying theme is to scare the student to death, perhaps to weed out the ones who aren't right for it. Perhaps it is the ranking police scaring the hell out of the new guys. Who knows? What I do know is the police are acting more afraid than ever. The result is that emotion rather than rational thought take over in many cases.

 

Is it fear that is causing all of this? If there are some cops here, it would be great to hear from you. If it is fear, what is the reason for it?

 

Dave, I had something happen in my family that could very well have been a tragedy. My youngest son last year was returning from the tech center over at south to PHS to go to classes. He did not know there was a lockdown due to a possible threat of a man with a gun. When he was walking to the school, a police car stopped in front of him, and a cop jumped out of his car, trained a gun at his head, and screamed at Sean to get on the ground. Sean had NO CLUE what was going on, but was scared to death. Two more police cars showed up and they took out guns and pointed them at him as well.  He was man handled, and that's not the end of it. Upon speaking to the police captain, my wife asked what would have happened if Sean would have taken the backpack off or freaked out, and the cop said he would have been shot. What the hell????? Shot???  Really????

 

As it turned out, there was a kid who sent a text to another kid about being mad at a girlfriend and mentioning a gun, etc. By the time the PHS administration got the story, it had changed to the 911 call "there is a man in the PHS parking lot with a gun". Both schools went on lockdown, and Parkersburg's finest showed up to do some Rambo ****.

 

Nobody died, but this whole fiasco is clear in my mind, my sons mind, my wife's mind, and in the minds of all those who love him. You know what? The principal of the school didn't even remember it was my son this happened to a year later. It was nothing to her, and it's gone from the minds of the cops too. 

 

Rant over, but I think it is fear, which causes rash decisions (no common sense). Why 3 cops with guns? Ridiculous!

 

edit: I didn't sue or go to the press. I just wanted things back to normal. It went back to normal for the school and the PD, but it sure as hell isn't normal in my house. That messed us up. I have lost a LOT of respect for the city PD. 

Edited November 27, 2014 by mustang guy

[wvu80]

Let me start first by saying that I know NOTHING about this. It is my opinion from far away. 

 

 

Rant over, but I think it is fear, which causes rash decisions (no common sense). Why 3 cops with guns? Ridiculous!

 

I 100% agree!  Ridiculous, and irresponsible behavior by those cops!

 

I have been involved professionally with kids who have called in bomb threats to the HS's in our area, as I'm sure you know it happens 2-3 times a year.  They get caught because they are not as smart as they think they are, then they get convicted for a juvenile crime, then they get assigned to your friendly neighborhood social worker, me.

 

But what you are describing is over the top.  My experiences with local law enforcement has been good, but if I was exposed to what your son had to endure, my opinion would change.

[oldenough]

 

Let me start first by saying that I know NOTHING about this. It is my opinion from far away. 

 

 

Rant over, but I think it is fear, which causes rash decisions (no common sense). Why 3 cops with guns? Ridiculous!

 

I 100% agree!  Ridiculous, and irresponsible behavior by those cops!

 

I have been involved professionally with kids who have called in bomb threats to the HS's in our area, as I'm sure you know it happens 2-3 times a year.  They get caught because they are not as smart as they think they are, then they get convicted for a juvenile crime, then they get assigned to your friendly neighborhood social worker, me.

 

But what you are describing is over the top.  My experiences with local law enforcement has been good, but if I was exposed to what your son had to endure, my opinion would change.

 

I understand your defence as to why the cops wouldn't use a taser, and why you wouldn't bring a taser to a knife fight...But could you offer an explanation of why the cops bring an AR-15 to a knife fight according to the OP?