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oscarsear

Am I missing something?

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As I get older I find myself understanding more and more the police's side of these types of incidents. I think nowadays the police almost have to assume the suspect (perpetrator or whatever you want to call them) has a gun also. But a woman with a knife has to be shot 5 times? Come on!

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I 100% agree!  Ridiculous, and irresponsible behavior by those cops!

 

I have been involved professionally with kids who have called in bomb threats to the HS's in our area, as I'm sure you know it happens 2-3 times a year.  They get caught because they are not as smart as they think they are, then they get convicted for a juvenile crime, then they get assigned to your friendly neighborhood social worker, me.

 

But what you are describing is over the top.  My experiences with local law enforcement has been good, but if I was exposed to what your son had to endure, my opinion would change.

 

I understand your defence as to why the cops wouldn't use a taser, and why you wouldn't bring a taser to a knife fight...But could you offer an explanation of why the cops bring an AR-15 to a knife fight according to the OP?

 

I know a little about cops because my son became a peace officer in the last year, so we talk about his work, and because he is still a rookie, we talk about his training at the police academy, which was a four month course.  I love his self-education, and he reads all the cop-involving incidents, and we discuss how he views things, and how I view things.  We each learn from our differing points of view.

 

Unfortunately, I really don't know anything first hand about that situation you describe.  I don't know why a cop would have an AR-15 in a knife situation.  I can see having a shotgun, but not an AR-15, but all that really does is expose my own ignorance of weapons and tactics.  I did see a Youtube video where a sharpshooter with a sniper rifle shot the gun out of a guy's hand, but in this particular situation?  I have no idea.

Edited by wvu80

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 This is a very tough situation. Thing is if the police DON'T do anything or take "lesser" action and someone else (bystander etc) gets hurt or killed than its on the police for not doing their job. I would think that if there is even a remote possibility that an officer, fellow officer or innocent bystander were at all at serious risk from a dangerous threat (crazy, knife wielding woman, kid with a gun or whatever) then it is their DUTY to act. Another thing to consider is that these officers are faced with threats on a regular basis and by that it becomes some what of a numbers game. In a lot of cases using less than lethal force would increase the chance that the wrong person gets hurt. If killing a "bad guy" saved an innocent, would it be worth it? How about every 10 "bad guys?"

 

Don't know if you've seen this or not yet:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7MAO7McNKE

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 This is a very tough situation. Thing is if the police DON'T do anything or take "lesser" action and someone else (bystander etc) gets hurt or killed than its on the police for not doing their job. I would think that if there is even a remote possibility that an officer, fellow officer or innocent bystander were at all at serious risk from a dangerous threat (crazy, knife wielding woman, kid with a gun or whatever) then it is their DUTY to act. Another thing to consider is that these officers are faced with threats on a regular basis and by that it becomes some what of a numbers game. In a lot of cases using less than lethal force would increase the chance that the wrong person gets hurt. If killing a "bad guy" saved an innocent, would it be worth it? How about every 10 "bad guys?"

 

Don't know if you've seen this or not yet:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7MAO7McNKE

So where does it end, does this mean that they can bring out their grenade launchers, or some of their other "military" equipment that a lot of police departments now have courtesy of the Pentagon and the 1033 program?

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Most of the comments I see above are clearly made by persons with no training or comprehension of police tactics.   There are federal protocols and guidelines established and taught that indicate how to deal with these types of threats.  All police are taught to shoot center body mass and to shoot until the threat is stopped.  No police training teaches shoot to kill.   Real life isn't a John Wayne western, there is no attempt to shoot guns out of peoples hands or just wound to slow them down.   

 

Tasers are used as less lethal options and should only be deployed with lethal backup, they don't always work or can be ineffective on some people.  There is no obligation to use a less lethal option such  as a taser when confronted by a lethal threat, if It can be tried safely then it can save lives.     A person wielding a knife and closer than 20ft is a good shoot all the way, FBI stats back this up.....look into it.

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As I get older I find myself understanding more and more the police's side of these types of incidents. I think nowadays the police almost have to assume the suspect (perpetrator or whatever you want to call them) has a gun also. But a woman with a knife has to be shot 5 times? Come on!

 

Again, I don't know a lot about those violent scenarios, but I have read about the evolution of police weapons and calibers, and the myth of the "one-shot kill."  Those smarter than I have studied the past shootouts and try to prevent these disasters in the future by upgrading weapons, ammo, and tactics.

 

This FBI shootout in 1986 is the classic case which has been studied, and lead to many police tactics used today and into the use of higher caliber weapons.  Eight FBI agents got into a shootout with 2 bank robbers.  Both bank robbers were hit MULTIPLE times by FBI bullets which eventually killed them, but not before 2 agents were killed and 5 were wounded.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

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Most of the comments I see above are clearly made by persons with no training or comprehension of police tactics.  

That may be true, but we are commenting on tactics that were used, and that some of us see as being unnecessary. We don't need the training, and are discussing this in the hope of maybe understanding "police tactics". There is a large proportion of the population who are questioning this very subject at this moment, as I am sure you are aware, and I can't think for one minute that you don't think there is some validity for their concerns. For my part I am fully aware of the power of most of the weapons being discussed, and capable of using what common-sense I was gifted with.

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Most of the comments I see above are clearly made by persons with no training or comprehension of police tactics.  

That may be true, but we are commenting on tactics that were used, and that some of us see as being unnecessary. We don't need the training, and are discussing this in the hope of maybe understanding "police tactics". There is a large proportion of the population who are questioning this very subject at this moment, as I am sure you are aware, and I can't think for one minute that you don't think there is some validity for their concerns. For my part I am fully aware of the power of most of the weapons being discussed, and capable of using what common-sense I was gifted with.

 

 

 

Fair enough.  There are NONE of us here who want police over-reaction, but on the other hand, there are NONE of us here who condone the terrible violence done in our country, by our citizens, to our citizens.  We NEED to be protected from these people, and saying to the bad guys PLEASE DON'T KILL OR ROB US just ain't good enough.

 

A real example I had direct knowledge of, for you to further comment on:  Earlier THIS YEAR in Myrtle Beach, there were SEVEN gun homicides by "black bikers" during Black Biker Week (I hate that expression, but it is what the Black Bikers call it).  What level of "tactics" and "weapon's power" does your "common sense" tell you is necessary to protect citizens from those kind of killings next year?

Edited by wvu80

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We NEED to be protected, and saying to the bad guys PLEASE DON'T KILL OR ROB US just ain't good enough.

The police don't protect you, and aren't required to protect you. They don't serve the ones who pay them, either.

Edited by Marvel
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Most of the comments I see above are clearly made by persons with no training or comprehension of police tactics.  

That may be true, but we are commenting on tactics that were used, and that some of us see as being unnecessary. We don't need the training, and are discussing this in the hope of maybe understanding "police tactics". There is a large proportion of the population who are questioning this very subject at this moment, as I am sure you are aware, and I can't think for one minute that you don't think there is some validity for their concerns. For my part I am fully aware of the power of most of the weapons being discussed, and capable of using what common-sense I was gifted with.

 

 

 

Fair enough.  There are NONE of us here who want police over-reaction, but on the other hand, there are NONE of us here who condone the terrible violence done in our country, by our citizens, to our citizens.  We NEED to be protected from these people, and saying to the bad guys PLEASE DON'T KILL OR ROB US just ain't good enough.

 

A real example I had direct knowledge of, for you to further comment on:  Earlier THIS YEAR in Myrtle Beach, there were SEVEN gun homicides by "black bikers" during Black Biker Week (I hate that expression, but it is what the Black Bikers call it).  What level of "tactics" and "weapon's power" does your "common sense" tell you is necessary to protect citizens from those kind of killings next year?

 

You want me to offer a solution to a scenario I have no knowledge of??? C'mon now, offer up a link to the story. I also thought we were discussing officer involved shootings.

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Let me start first by saying that I know NOTHING about this. It is my opinion from far away. 

 

 

Rant over, but I think it is fear, which causes rash decisions (no common sense). Why 3 cops with guns? Ridiculous!

 

I 100% agree!  Ridiculous, and irresponsible behavior by those cops!

 

I have been involved professionally with kids who have called in bomb threats to the HS's in our area, as I'm sure you know it happens 2-3 times a year.  They get caught because they are not as smart as they think they are, then they get convicted for a juvenile crime, then they get assigned to your friendly neighborhood social worker, me.

 

But what you are describing is over the top.  My experiences with local law enforcement has been good, but if I was exposed to what your son had to endure, my opinion would change.

 

I understand your defence as to why the cops wouldn't use a taser, and why you wouldn't bring a taser to a knife fight...But could you offer an explanation of why the cops bring an AR-15 to a knife fight according to the OP?

 

It could have been an automatic knife.

 

If I were a cop, I would take atomic bombs to gun fights.  

 

Just kidding. Trying to soften up a serious issue with a bit of humor. 

 

As for federal training... That may be the whole problem. Since when was the federal government good at anything they do? That is a serious question? In another thread, there is a discussion about homelessness and hunger. The federal government admits it cannot fix this problem. It relies on churches and organizations to fill in the gaps. Now the laws are arresting ordained 90 year old WWII veteran ministers who feed the needy. 

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You want me to offer a solution to a scenario I have no knowledge of??? C'mon now, offer up a link to the story. I also thought we were discussing officer involved shootings.

 

 

I can try to find a link, but that's not where I got any information.  I was in Myrtle Beach for vacation a week AFTER BB week and the murders were all everybody was talking about, all over town.  It didn't make me feel very safe being there.

 

Edit:  I found a link by Googling it.  I don't subscribe to the source, it's just the first thing that came up on Google search.  According to the article, my first-hand info was wrong also, as it was 3 dead, not eight as I had incorrectly remembered.

http://topconservativenews.com/2014/05/black-bike-weekend-at-myrtle-beach-explodes-into-violence-again-4-shot-3-dead/

 

And we really don't need to pursue it anyway, as I thought your answer was pretty good, making my question rhetorical.  I thought we were talking about the contention that officers use too much force, use guns that were too high power (AR-15), etc.  My point would be that in order to meet the threat of lethal force, officers MUST have equivalent firepower to keep the public safe.  Then the public must have trust that the cops have sufficient training and judgement to know how to use that force.

 

Even with every safeguard in place, the cops are not always going to do the right thing, according to their training, I think we can both (all) agree on that.  I think this is by FAR the exception, not the rule.  Your experiences will dictate whether or not you agree with me on this, and I fully respect that we all have different experiences with law enforcement.

 

I have gone into a drug house at 2:00am with law enforcement and Child Protective Services to rescue a baby who was at-risk due to the drug use in the house, and the murder that happened there the week before (grandmother/caretaker was murdered).  The deputies I went with were 100% professional and did their job to protect that baby, who obviously couldn't take care of itself. The druggies would not open the door, but the door was opened for them and the cops took charge.  I don't think that story about law enforcement's use of "too much force" made it into the papers either.  But I know it, I was there, and that colors the way I look at the job that law enforcement does.

Edited by wvu80

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In every group of people there is a percentage that is full of themselves, for lack of a better term.

My wife used to work for a police department in a small town.  A more deceitful, self centered group of turds I have never known.

Now I'm not saying that all of them are Turds.  But most of this group were.  If you didn't join their good ole boys club they would run you out of town.

 

For a lot of years I could not even say the word cop without it destroying the rest of my day.  To say that I hated these people would be an understatement.  

 

Later in life I had to work with Federal Police officers.  Some of them still had the attitude that showed them to be full of themselves. However a higher percentage of them seemed to be good people. 

Working on a locked Psych unit we had occasion to call them for backup.  There was one officer that each time he came to our unit would push the patients until he got hurt.  He just did not know when to back off and defuse the situation,

 

Most of the others were very good with the patients and very helpful in defusing the situation.

 

Some of the things I learned in my job was not to get into the patients space, leave yourself room to defend yourself so "No one gets hurt".  Only physically intervene when absolutely necessary.  

 

To pull up to a suspect and not allow defensive space is just looking to get someone hurt.

The officers that shot the 12 year old got too close and did not allow defensive space in my opinion.  Nor did the officer in Fergason.  I think there is room for blame all the way around.  The officers got too close to allow for safety in each case and someone got killed.

 

When interacting with law enforcement personal it is best not to do anything that leaves them feeling afraid for their life. 

I have been stopped while I was armed more times then I recall.  I have found that I can tell them what I think of them, good or bad without giving them an excuse to feel threatened.  If I'm in my car, I'm most likely armed.  If I do anything to leave these people feeling threatened I know that I might be shot.

 

You just have to look at the whole situation and behave safely.  Trouble is too many people, Public and Officers do not act in a manner that promotes safety.

 

You can threaten an officer (been there done that), but do not threaten their safety unless you are prepared to take it to the limit. And die for your cause.  

Edited by Taz
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Everybody..........  thnx for the feedback.  It is always helpful to gain insights from others and the diversity here is incomparable.  

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My best friend is a retired 24 yr veteran police officer, he is of the opinion that the power that is given to police officers is too much for any human to cope with in some ways. He has never known a rookie enter the force and not become a changed person, and nearly always for the worse. He had a real hard time adapting when he retired, and we have often had cause to converse about his career, and his antics. He's a real nice guy, but he will admit that he was not always that nice while on duty. One thing he is adamant about is that the people who SHOULD become police officers wouldn't for the most part consider it as a career.

Edited by oldenough

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I had a coworker get killed by the cops I think last year.  He was on disability due to mental problems.  Due to Obamacare something or another he lost his insurance though and couldn't afford his meds.  About a week later he lost it, took a decorative sword down and started whacking stuff and yelling.  Neighbors called to try to report a potential suicide.  Cops show up with an ambulance.  Cop goes to the door and as he's walking, a ride-along in the passenger seat freaks out because he sees this guy walking around with a samurai sword and pellet gun, in his own house.  Cop freaks, jumps in the cruiser and goes out to the road, gets his rifle and starts yelling at the guy to come out of the house.  Guy comes to the front door all confused, hesitates, then allegedly points his pellet gun at the cop and starts walking across the yard towards him.  Cop drops him with two rifle shots to the torso, he died a few days later.  

 

My problem with it is that they KNEW it was a suicide prevention call and they knew what this guy was doing before they came.  It's inexcusable that they guy they were trying to keep from killing himself ended up dead by the hand of a cop.  This guy was in his own house, they should have tried to I dunno, maybe call the guy on the phone.  He had a land line.  

 

Google Mike Lakin if you think I'm making this up.  

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The overall problem is that we have allowed the government, and these left winged Liberals to abuse their powers and dictate to us what we can and can't do as parents raising our kids. Overall we can't discipline our kids so that they learn respect for others and don't have the I'm owed mentality. They don't fear police or anyone for the matter in society and will do whatever they want, and the people who run this country now force upon us to accept everyone for what they are,no matter what and if we don't we are bad people and bad parents and the state will step in and do what they want.

 

Now as for people who may have an issue mentally, there is no help for them due to the same mentioned where the Liberal has forced us to accept them as "different" to be PC, instead of "sick" and in need of "care". We pump meds in them to keep the corps lining the pockets of said representatives happy,instead of helping with their issue. So these people walk around doped up from their meds without having these so called doctors really getting to know their patients and their needs because it's easier to make them "zombies" while getting paid to write these scrips so big corps can continue making money to donate to these lifetime reps in congress. There is no taking responsibility for ones actions anymore as we have let these reps take that out of our hands. Just my opinion.

 

The person getting shot could have had a million different things done, but unless we were there to see what was happening, will not get the full story of what really happened, there will always be 3 sides to a story.And the videos we do see from everyone in today's society never show the actual truth, just the truth based on their feelings and the way they edit them. I'm sure there was at least 10-15 different videos taken by bystanders and every one of them had a different view on things.  Some people will say the person calling shouldn't have said what he said, some will agree he did correct,some will say the police were wrong, some will agree with them. Either way it's a travesty we've gotten to this point and it's due to the government, no one else.

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Well, it has been rather civil... ;)

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I also think there is a difference between political and social discussions.  I think this topic could have gone either way, but discussion was kept 95% to discussing social issues.

 

I say, good job everybody (including Klipsch mods).  :emotion-21:

Edited by wvu80
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