disappointed in R15M Speakers

[bugman53]

I was looking for a set of speakers to put in the garage to replace the crappy computer speakers i have in there now. I noticed the R15M's on black Friday for $125 a pair. I though why not they are cheap so I won’t mind them being in the elements. I have a pair of carver TFM-25 amps that i am not currently using, I was planning on using one, but it seems that good stereo preamps are impossible to find for less than 500+ dollars. And most low buck receivers do not have pre outs. So I just picked up a cheap insignia stereo receiver. Being just a garage and not wanting to much high end gear out there to get covered in grinding dust ect and I don’t need much power. 

 

So I get home hook everything up and my first impression was YUCK. The best way I can describe the sound was muffled midrange and an almost pezio electric sounding tweeter. Overly bearing mid bass it sounds like there is a dip in the frequency response from 800 - 2-3k hz. Noting scientific just a guess. I am convinced something can’t be right. So I hook up the new receiver to my oscilloscope to see what the sign wave looks like and that both outputs were in phase. Everything looked ok and in phase. The crappy tone controls on that cheap receiver could not do much to help the sound.  

 

I took the speakers in and hooked them up to my Marantz receiver running through a Adcom GFA-5500 AMP. And they did sound noticeably better but still not what I could consider "good" passable for garage speakers yes but not great at all. With lots of help from an EQ they sound better. I just can’t put my finger on it but something about the tweeter sounds almost repulsing with some music but pretty good with others. But that tells me that some of the problem is with that cheap receiver. So I am going to take that receiver back to best buy and I just ordered a Denon AVR-E300 to replace it. It has audussy setup and user adjustable EQ's so i hope i can tune them in to a acceptable sound with it. It is a much nicer receiver also that will let me stream music from pandora ect without using my cell phone as a source.

 

Has anyone else had any experience with the R15M's? Even with a $1500 amp and $800 reciver they are marginal at best to my ears. The just sound undetailed and muddy and a piezo sounding tweeter and no clarity.

[willland]

Bugman53,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

I too saw the $125.00/pair deal and thought about it for a bit but decided that for my computer desk, what I have sounds fine enough for now.

 

Now, I may be ahead of myself but the combination of the Insignia receiver and small/medium bookshelf speakers with aluminum diaphragms in a concrete(assuming) walled environment of around 3000ft3(assuming), you may possibly get some crazy reflections that will alter the frequency response in a huge way.  I know you said the R15M's sounded better with your Marantz/Adcom combo in doors with some manual EQ, but is this system in a "live" and large room also?

 

Bill 

Edited November 29, 2014 by willland

[wvu80]

Overreaction deleted by me.  -Dave

Edited November 29, 2014 by wvu80

[Scrappydue]

Maybe he has something at his house that he can eq with but doesn't want it out in his garage?

And maybe all 4-5 star reviewers have never heard better speakers. Lots of people don't know any better. I thought the rc-64 was the best center channel ever. Till I heard better. It's all in perspective.

[Heritage_Head]

I was looking for a set of speakers to put in the garage to replace the crappy computer speakers i have in there now. I noticed the R15M's on black Friday for $125 a pair. I though why not they are cheap so I won’t mind them being in the elements. I have a pair of carver TFM-25 amps that i am not currently using, I was planning on using one, but it seems that good stereo preamps are impossible to find for less than 500+ dollars. And most low buck receivers do not have pre outs. So I just picked up a cheap insignia stereo receiver. Being just a garage and not wanting to much high end gear out there to get covered in grinding dust ect and I don’t need much power. 

 

So I get home hook everything up and my first impression was YUCK. The best way I can describe the sound was muffled midrange and an almost pezio electric sounding tweeter. Overly bearing mid bass it sounds like there is a dip in the frequency response from 800 - 2-3k hz. Noting scientific just a guess. I am convinced something can’t be right. So I hook up the new receiver to my oscilloscope to see what the sign wave looks like and that both outputs were in phase. Everything looked ok and in phase. The crappy tone controls on that cheap receiver could not do much to help the sound.  

 

I took the speakers in and hooked them up to my Marantz receiver running through a Adcom GFA-5500 AMP. And they did sound noticeably better but still not what I could consider "good" passable for garage speakers yes but not great at all. With lots of help from an EQ they sound better. I just can’t put my finger on it but something about the tweeter sounds almost repulsing with some music but pretty good with others. But that tells me that some of the problem is with that cheap receiver. So I am going to take that receiver back to best buy and I just ordered a Denon AVR-E300 to replace it. It has audussy setup and user adjustable EQ's so i hope i can tune them in to a acceptable sound with it. It is a much nicer receiver also that will let me stream music from pandora ect without using my cell phone as a source.

 

Has anyone else had any experience with the R15M's? Even with a $1500 amp and $800 reciver they are marginal at best to my ears. The just sound undetailed and muddy and a piezo sounding tweeter and no clarity.

I would get a umc-1pre amp. Emotiva UMC-1 Ultra Media Controller -...  sell cheap and sound really good for 2ch music. They have a really nice eq and lots of controls. I got one for a few hundred. Imo its an amazing value for that price. 

Edited November 29, 2014 by Pro-Cinema_Head

[Youthman]

I was curious how these $125/pair Black Friday speakers were going to sound.  We do have to keep in mind that we are looking at a $250 MSRP speaker.  If they sounded great, there would be no reason to upgrade to the Reference II Series.

 

The UMC-1 does have a LOT of tweaking capabilities, but it just was not for me.  I never could get the EQ right since EMOQ was pretty much useless and I did not have a way of knowing which frequencies needed to be boosted and which needed to be cut.

 

And maybe all 4-5 star reviewers have never heard better speakers. Lots of people don't know any better. I thought the rc-64 was the best center channel ever. Till I heard better. It's all in perspective.

True.  I felt the same way for a long time.  Ignorance is bliss I guess.

[bugman53]

Bugman53 wrote the exact same bad review of those speakers on the Best Buy site, just three days ago!

 

Bugman53 used the word "YUCK," was using the speakers for garage speakers, and also used a Marantz pre and Adcom amp.  That Bugman53 used a $3,000 Adcom amp, and noted above that his Adcom amp is only $1,500.  I hope Bugman53 didn't pay full retail for the Adcom GFA5500, as they are available for $500 just about everywhere.

 

The other review notes that with "LOTS" of EQ they can sound "passable" but I don't know how Bugman53 can say that, since the new Denon AVR that was just ordered (above) likely hasn't come in yet.

 

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/klipsch-reference-5-1-4-bookshelf-speakers-pair/6228109.p?id=1219198818817&skuId=6228109

 

There were 19 5-Star reviews, one 4-Star, and only ONE person had a 2-Star review; Bugman53.  I find this all very confusing.  I'm sure there's a simple explanation.

 

That was me sure enough. That Adcom was actually given to me by a good friend, I have seen them from 1500-3000 from different websites I’m not sure what they sold for new that was just a reference for people that did not know what that amp is to understand that it is not a amp problem. That is my favorite amp and if it won’t drive the speakers well noting will in my experience. Just interjected that to eliminate the amp or that cheap insignia receiver as the problem. And I’m sure that Insignia receiver is at least half the problem.

 

To the EQ question, I hooked them up to my Marantz/ Adcom combo in my den, it is a fairly large room with high ceilings, it is fairly well dampened but not optimum by any means. And I have to say they did not sound bad with that setup and a lot of EQ, I just ordered the Denon yesterday from accessories for less on sale for $149.99 I figured it has to be a ton better than that insignia and that was a killer price. I should get it next week so we will see how it sounds with that receiver. I am currently in Mississippi ( My wife is a captain in the air force and we are stationed at CAFB). And it goes for 110* at 95% humidity to freezing and i just don’t want to put anything to expensive out there so if it gets damaged I won’t be upset.

 

I did not mean to offend you by my review of the speakers but that was my honest first impression. I may have been a little harsh on them but that is my opinion.

[bugman53]

The grague is around 3600ft^3. You might be on to something also with the reflections. I think you are right it is just a combination of all the above and that cheap receiver is not helping one bit. I figured with modern technology even the cheap amps should at least put out clean power with a flat frequency response but I guess I was wrong. And who knows what kind of cheap A/D converters are in that thing. I think over all the speakers are just average speakers built down for a price for best buy and I guess they had to cut corners somewhere, maybe I was expecting too much out of a $125 pair of speakers.   

 

 

I looked up that UMC-1 it looks like a sold budget preamp. If I don’t stop now this is going to get out of hand and ill end up with a 2k in stereo gear in the garage and I’m giving the wife your guy’s names and blame it on you when she sees the bill...LOL

 

 

PS, Thanks for the welcome and the feedback guys, I am going to keep playing with these and I’ll keep the thread updated with what I find.

Edited November 29, 2014 by bugman53

[wvu80]

(respectful snip, I just wanted to reference your post)

 

I did not mean to offend you by my review of the speakers but that was my honest first impression. I may have been a little harsh on them but that is my opinion. (bugman53)

+++

 

Your reply (directly above) qualifies you IMO as a person of some quality and integrity, I apologize if I've jumped to a faulty conclusion based on your initial post.  Trolls don't offer reasonable explanations, and often disappear after a negative post.

 

What got my rabbit ears up is that there are people who go from website to website to website posting negative reviews, about "what ever" product.  A negative review about anything doesn't bother me.  I prefer honesty, and sometimes every product is not a gem.

 

There are a LOT of knowledgeable people on here.  If you had been asking for feedback instead of making Post #1 a complaint, I likely would have reacted differently.

 

I've redacted my initial post to reflect my current sentiments.  Since you quoted me, my quote will show up in your post, but feel free to delete it as well.  -Dave

Edited November 29, 2014 by wvu80

[bugman53]

 

(respectful snip, I just wanted to reference your post)

 

I did not mean to offend you by my review of the speakers but that was my honest first impression. I may have been a little harsh on them but that is my opinion. (bugman53)

+++

 

Your reply (directly above) qualifies you IMO as a person of some quality and integrity, I apologize if I've jumped to a faulty conclusion based on your initial post.  Trolls don't offer reasonable explanations, and often disappear after a negative post.

 

What got my rabbit ears up is that there are people who go from website to website to website posting negative reviews, about "what ever" product.  A negative review about anything doesn't bother me.  I prefer honesty, and sometimes every product is not a gem.

 

There are a LOT of knowledgeable people on here.  If you had been asking for feedback instead of making Post #1 a complaint, I likely would have reacted differently.

 

I've redacted my initial post to reflect my current sentiments.  Since you quoted me, my quote will show up in your post, but feel free to delete it as well.  -Dave

 

No problem man! No apology needed. I probably did come across that way out of frustration but that was not my intent.

 

 

Speakers seem to be a hot topic of debate because sound is subjective, what sounds good to one person my sound repulsive to another and who is to say who is right. In example my favorite speakers for listening in a large room where lots of volume is needed (ie playing saxophone and playing backup tracks through them) are infinity SM-225’s which a lot of people flat out despise, Granted I have a velodyne ULD-18 sub with them crossed over at 80hz (they do have a weak low end for there size) and I have modified the midranges with a thicker heavier surround to smooth out the mid rand and done a few other little mods. But I LOVE them. I can play sax recorded it and play it back and there the only ones I have tried that sound Just like it did when I recorded it. But I’m sure a ton of people would tell me I don’t know what I am talking about (which is probably true..LOL). But I have no illusion that they are even “High End” they just fit a role for me and sound great to my ears.     

 

But back to these speakers, I was just outside listening to them and what I think what is bothering me the most are they just sound like there is a lack of detail in the music. Some subtle parts of different tracks that I am used to hearing are just not there. IE From the Piano Guys we 3 kings, you can hear his fingers on the fret board and subtle string noise of the cello with my other speakers with these it’s just not there they almost sounds slightly muffled. Equalization can take care of any tone issues I have with them I hope but I don’t know about the clarity and detail. I am not giving up on them yet.  That is my main reason for the post to see if I am just crazy or if anyone else had noticed the same thing and maybe had some mods for them or something like that. 

Edited November 30, 2014 by bugman53

[bugman53]

UPDATE. I got the Denon receiver in yesterday. With the Denon I ran the auto adussey setup in several different rooms in my house from a small room with heavy carpet and drapes and to a den with Harwood floors and cathedral ceilings. I was just curious how "flat" they played. I was using audussey and then looking at the EQ setting just to see what the curve looked like to get an idea of how "flat" the speakers played. I know it’s not very scientific but I did get consistence result that gave me an idea of the frequency response curve. Here is an average of what I came up with. 

 

Also note that the max range is 6db so it is maxed out at some frequencies,

 

This is the change so where it is positive the speakers have a dip in response and vice versa.

63hz: -1.5 dB

125hz: -1.0 dB

250hz: +2db

500hz: +1 db

1k hz:-2.5 db

2k HZ: +6 db

4k HZ: +5.5 db

8k hz: +6db

16k hz +6 db

 

This is right in line with what I was seeing when I was playing them on the Adcom\marantz and using manual eq setting. So the response curve of these are far from flat and they do in fact need a lot of EQ to get a flat response curve. IE an 8 decibel swing from 1 to 2 k hz. It seems these could really benefit from some crossover mods. But this will vary per your room also so everyone setup will be different.

 

NOW after I got them playing a flat response curve I haft to say they sound better. The tweeter is nice and bright (I like bright tweeters). The tweeter sound does have a different timber compared to most dome tweeters I have heard. I can say I prefer the dome tweeter sound over these though but not too bad.

The midrange, it sound average for the price range. To me it just does not reproduce the fine detail in the recording. The sound seems to be lacking the most in the upper midrange region. I would say slightly muddy but overall not bad.

My overall opinion, with lots of eq to flatten out the frequency response they do not sound bad (Not outstanding, not great, but not bad). They sound like a $125 pair of speakers I don’t think I would pay $250 for them as there are better speakers in that price range. So if you buy these make sure you have an equalizer for your setup. 

[derrickdj1]

The EQ settings don't tell you how flat the speaker is in the room.  Room interactions dominate the sound in the great majority of room.  Auto EQ is meant to correct things and allows some tweaks for personal taste.  You have to decide if you want the speakers or upgrade to something else.  A lot of people, me included at one time looked to spend the least on speakers as possible and get a great system.  For the most part, entry level system are not the marque line for most manufacturers.

Edited December 5, 2014 by derrickdj1

[bugman53]

I already bought a set of infinity primus p163's and they came in today, I have been listening to them back to back an i have decided to take the klipsch's back to best buy. The infinities sound much better to my ears.. 

[Heritage_Head]

UPDATE. I got the Denon receiver in yesterday. With the Denon I ran the auto adussey setup in several different rooms in my house from a small room with heavy carpet and drapes and to a den with Harwood floors and cathedral ceilings. I was just curious how "flat" they played. I was using audussey and then looking at the EQ setting just to see what the curve looked like to get an idea of how "flat" the speakers played. I know it’s not very scientific but I did get consistence result that gave me an idea of the frequency response curve. Here is an average of what I came up with. 

 

Also note that the max range is 6db so it is maxed out at some frequencies,

 

This is the change so where it is positive the speakers have a dip in response and vice versa.

63hz: -1.5 dB

125hz: -1.0 dB

250hz: +2db

500hz: +1 db

1k hz:-2.5 db

2k HZ: +6 db

4k HZ: +5.5 db

8k hz: +6db

16k hz +6 db

 

This is right in line with what I was seeing when I was playing them on the Adcom\marantz and using manual eq setting. So the response curve of these are far from flat and they do in fact need a lot of EQ to get a flat response curve. IE an 8 decibel swing from 1 to 2 k hz. It seems these could really benefit from some crossover mods. But this will vary per your room also so everyone setup will be different.

 

NOW after I got them playing a flat response curve I haft to say they sound better. The tweeter is nice and bright (I like bright tweeters). The tweeter sound does have a different timber compared to most dome tweeters I have heard. I can say I prefer the dome tweeter sound over these though but not too bad.

The midrange, it sound average for the price range. To me it just does not reproduce the fine detail in the recording. The sound seems to be lacking the most in the upper midrange region. I would say slightly muddy but overall not bad.

My overall opinion, with lots of eq to flatten out the frequency response they do not sound bad (Not outstanding, not great, but not bad). They sound like a $125 pair of speakers I don’t think I would pay $250 for them as there are better speakers in that price range. So if you buy these make sure you have an equalizer for your setup. 

That eq is pretty bad I must say. Most klipsch I have seen get eq down in the higher end and up a bit in the low end. Never have I seen it look like that. Something is wrong or its a poorly made speaker by klipsch. Its hard to say with that line. 

Edited December 5, 2014 by Cinema_head

[derrickdj1]

Here is the EQ of my left and right speakers:

 

                              Left                  Right

 

63 Hz                    NA                     NA

 

125 Hz                 -2.0                    +1.5

 

250 Hz                 +2,5                   +5.5

 

500 Hz                 +0.5                   -3.5

 

1k                         +2.0                  +2.0

 

2k                         +2.0                  +3.0

 

4k                        + 4.5                  +1.5

 

8k                        -2.0                    -0.5

 

16k                     -3.0                    -3.0

 

This is all channels EQ on MCACC.  You should see how different the other speakers are.  The EQ numbers don't mean anything.  They reflect what is going on in the room.  My mains are equal distance but, one is near a corner.

 

In a HT with multichannel setup, there are all kind of issues: odd shape rooms, windows, reflective surfaces boundary gain, standing wave problems, phase issues and other that will effect the speakers.  HT was pretty lack luster before the days of auto EQ.  To test for a flat response, speakers need to be in an anechoic chamber or open field.

Edited December 5, 2014 by derrickdj1

[JL Sargent]

I have a pair of these same speakers I'm using as fronts in a 5.1 Klipsch setup. They replaced a pair of RSX 5 speakers which I'm moving to my computer. I'm happy with them as small bookshelf type speakers. Of course they do not equal my Belles nor do I expect them to.  

Edited December 5, 2014 by JL Sargent

[Heritage_Head]

Here is the EQ of my left and right speakers:

 

                              Left                  Right

 

63 Hz                    NA                     NA

 

125 Hz                 -2.0                    +1.5

 

250 Hz                 +2,5                   +5.5

 

500 Hz                 +0.5                   -3.5

 

1k                         +2.0                  +2.0

 

2k                         +2.0                  +3.0

 

4k                        + 4.5                  +1.5

 

8k                        -2.0                    -0.5

 

16k                     -3.0                    -3.0

 

This is all channels EQ on MCACC.  You should see how different the other speakers are.  The EQ numbers don't mean anything.  They reflect what is going on in the room.  My mains are equal distance but, one is near a corner.

 

In a HT with multichannel setup, there are all kind of issues: odd shape rooms, windows, reflective surfaces boundary gain, standing wave problems, phase issues and other that will effect the speakers.  HT was pretty lack luster before the days of auto EQ.  To test for a flat response, speakers need to be in an anechoic chamber or open field.

Your right, But his #s on the top end is a bit more than a room issue I think?. Being that 6 is max on his (that is strange in it self). Unless he has a rug hanging over the speakers lol. 

[Scrappydue]

Here is the EQ of my left and right speakers:

Left Right

63 Hz NA NA

125 Hz -2.0 +1.5

250 Hz +2,5 +5.5

500 Hz +0.5 -3.5

1k +2.0 +2.0

2k +2.0 +3.0

4k + 4.5 +1.5

8k -2.0 -0.5

16k -3.0 -3.0

This is all channels EQ on MCACC. You should see how different the other speakers are. The EQ numbers don't mean anything. They reflect what is going on in the room. My mains are equal distance but, one is near a corner.

In a HT with multichannel setup, there are all kind of issues: odd shape rooms, windows, reflective surfaces boundary gain, standing wave problems, phase issues and other that will effect the speakers. HT was pretty lack luster before the days of auto EQ. To test for a flat response, speakers need to be in an anechoic chamber or open field.

derrick the guy doesn't want to know how flat the speaker is from the factory he's trying to get them flat in his room.

Id say everything is coming from the room. You can't post specs saying xxhz to xxxxxHZ +/- 3db and then have swings like that. And I don't Klipsch would fudge that spec.

[derrickdj1]

The EQ data he gave still does not tell how flat he is in the room.  The output of my L/R speaker is flat.  He needs a frequency response graph to see what the EQ calibration did to the room response. More than likely, setup is the problem.  I had similar small Klipsch bookshelf speakers and thought they were pretty good for their size.

[bugman53]

The engineer in me can’t just leave them alone, Now I’m am just playing with then to see what is going on with them. If anyone is curious I can pull the drivers and post pics and check out the crossover to see what’s in them.  

 

I have a frequency generator that is supposed to run a pair of speakers although I have never tried to (a GW-instek SFG-1003), everyone is correct that is not very scientific because the room has a lot of effect. I think I have everything I need to get a true frequency response graph of the speakers. I have never done it.

 

What would be the best makeshift way to take a room out of the equation to test them? Test them outside?