Schu Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 2º Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K5SS Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Has anyone ever answered the ? Why are bookshelf speakers tilted upward? To me, it looks like the base can tilt the speakers either up or down. If the base isn't attached, it looks like the speakers won't have any tilt at all. I am assuming the base is removable though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) So do the Reference Premiere Wireless bookshelves also have rear-firing ports, non-removable bases, and no mounting hardware? Based on what I've seen so far, all of the new bookshelf speakers just don't look suitable for wall mounting. To me, that's a serious oversight, especially for the wireless system, where the intent is clearly for the bookshelf speakers to be used as surrounds. I don't see the problem. Why not put bookshelf speakers on a.......bookshelf? I assume you're not just being argumentative, so I'll respond...(respectful snip!) A little humorous yes, but argumentative, no. I can see by your response we have a slight failure to communicate, and it's probably on MY end for not being clear. I was envisioning the free-standing Atmos speaker being mounted on a bookshelf, and it would be upward firing. The picture from CES had an Atmos displayed that way, so that's what I was thinking as well. I do see your point about the bookshelf speakers. Sorry about the confusion. Edited January 8, 2015 by wvu80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Guess they're not wireless after all. You now have a choice of seeing a speaker wire or a power cord. True as that is, I would rather cut into some drywall and add an outlet or two than climb my happy(old) butt into the attic and run 40 feet of speaker wire. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Has anyone ever answered the ? Why are bookshelf speakers tilted upward? To me, it looks like the base can tilt the speakers either up or down. If the base isn't attached, it looks like the speakers won't have any tilt at all. I am assuming the base is removable though. OK...if that's the case then I guess its OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schwa Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Andy intimated in post #919 that the monitors' bases can be removed if you're willing to take the risk of possibly damaging the speaker. In other words, they're not designed to be removed. For all practical purposes, you're pretty much stuck with the upward 2 degree tilt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Not to be a Debbie Downer, but I guess the facts that the new Reference Premiere bookshelf speakers are rear-ported, lack wall-mounting hardware, and have a (presumably) non-removable plinth base rules them out for use as wall-mounted surrounds, huh? I prefer the WDST surrounds myself, but those particular RP bookshelf design choices might alienate that segment of folks who prefer to use monopole speakers for surrounds. And what's the thinking behind the slight upward angle the bookshelves seem to have? The RP-150M have wall mount hardware on them. OH Yeah like that's gonna fly, what moron is responsible for doing this?. If you can't figure this one out don't ask. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Chad: can you elaborate on what the physical differences are between the new woofer cone material and the older ref metal cones? What is it that makes the new ones better Vs the older cones? Best regards Moray James. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted January 8, 2015 Author Moderators Share Posted January 8, 2015 Yes, the angled baffle speaker lying on its back is part of the Atmos lineup - the "add-on" Atmos speaker, still in development and undergoing Dolby testing/approval. However, I also see it being well-suited as a side/rear surround as well. Thanks Alex. I guess I was confusing the Atmos with the WiSA speakers. So the Atmos speaker could be used as a surround, which would not require a power cable. Cool deal for those needing a bookshelf type speaker instead of a wide dispersion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Chad Posted January 8, 2015 Administrators Share Posted January 8, 2015 Chad: can you elaborate on what the physical differences are between the new woofer cone material and the older ref metal cones? What is it that makes the new ones better Vs the older cones? Best regards Moray James. Bearing in mind I'm but a lowly web developer, and not one of our hot-shot engineers and I know you don't want some misinformation or even informative marketing lingo, and although I've learned A LOT since I started working here - I'll defer to the information I've been given: These new bass/midrange drivers use the advanced Cerametallic cone with a newly developed titanium voice coil former which eliminates eddy currents, allowing linear coil travel for enhanced efficiency, lowest distortion and extended clean bass response. Lower distortion bass and midrange response Greater phase coherency as the driver seamlessly matches with the polar pattern of the horn at crossover Greater linearity provides for uncompressed, dynamic response Excellent efficiency and power handling Extended bass response (extension) Perhaps @DaveWJr, @Andy W, or @Jay L can provide more technical insight if they have a moment. They are all much smarter than me! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay L Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Chad: can you elaborate on what the physical differences are between the new woofer cone material and the older ref metal cones? What is it that makes the new ones better Vs the older cones? Best regards Moray James. Bearing in mind I'm but a lowly web developer, and not one of our hot-shot engineers and I know you don't want some misinformation or even informative marketing lingo, and although I've learned A LOT since I started working here - I'll defer to the information I've been given: These new bass/midrange drivers use the advanced Cerametallic cone with a newly developed titanium voice coil former which eliminates eddy currents, allowing linear coil travel for enhanced efficiency, lowest distortion and extended clean bass response. Lower distortion bass and midrange response Greater phase coherency as the driver seamlessly matches with the polar pattern of the horn at crossover Greater linearity provides for uncompressed, dynamic response Excellent efficiency and power handling Extended bass response (extension) Perhaps @DaveWJr, @Andy W, or @Jay L can provide more technical insight if they have a moment. They are all much smarter than me! The "cones" themselves are pretty much the same as Ref II. The Ref II got a jump in the cone department from Ref. IV mkI. Some additional tweaks were made on a "per model basis" as every single woofer has a new frame for the premier line. We are not going to give up all the sauce on every question, that comes with the industry we are in. I will say this, we don't replace a line of speakers with something that sucks. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy W Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) Has anyone ever answered the ? Why are bookshelf speakers tilted upward? To me, it looks like the base can tilt the speakers either up or down. If the base isn't attached, it looks like the speakers won't have any tilt at all. I am assuming the base is removable though. Why? Aesthetics. The angles on the cabinet face, grill, and plinth, along with the slight tilt all work together to please the eye. Yes, the cabinets are all at 90 degrees without the plinth. I'm assuming that all the plinth screws are in a rectangular pattern, and that you could turn the plinth around but I'm not going out on a limb to say that it's possible on all of them, or that the edges would line up if you did. It would certainly change the aesthitics though. Andy intimated in post #919 that the monitors' bases can be removed if you're willing to take the risk of possibly damaging the speaker. In other words, they're not designed to be removed. For all practical purposes, you're pretty much stuck with the upward 2 degree tilt. I wouldn't go so far as to say "damage", and repeatedly putting screws in an out of MDF is never a good idea, however as a "one time" thing, the thing I would be most worried about is the air leak that *might* occur with the screws removed from the bottom if the tip of the screw pokes through all the way. As I said the length of the screws and the thickness of the cabinet, and whetever slight production tolerances that exist (as there is on every manufactured item) might leave a very small air leak if they are removed. Nothing that a small bit of rope caulk wouldn't fix. But if you were going to wall mount, the plinth works with the bracket to keep the port open, so I was answering the question more along those lines. Edited January 8, 2015 by Andy W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I don't expect that you would replace good for poor. I would be interested in seeing raw response curves showing the benefit of the new metal cone treatment over older anodized cones of similar thickness. Metal cone ring badly and that has to be controlled (damped) and even then steep filters are required to bury their breakup. What about your new tweeters are you using a half round poly suspension of some sort? Deep drawn one piece dome/formers make for tremendous thermal dissipation but that is no new idea in this industry. You need to tell us something of worth. I am seeing too much spin around here. Tractrix vents oh good show they look cool do you bother to use a similar profile inside the cabinet where the customer does not see? I see reflex vents on the back side of bookshelf speakers that so often get shoved up to the wall. I see hang on the wall hooks on the same bookshelf speaker really helps those vent to work slapped up against the wall. Yellow button territory must be hard. Best regards Moray James. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schwa Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) I do agree that the spin with respect to the Tractrix bass reflex ports is a bit much. "Utilizing Tractrix geometry, the all new Reference Premiere ports allow for the most efficient, fastest air transfer from the cabinet – for the cleanest, most powerful low frequency response on the market." C'mon. As long as the inlet area, exit area, and length of the nozzle is the same (and, let's face it, that's all the port is -- a divergent nozzle), then the shape of the nozzle's walls don't really matter in terms of "fast air transfer." In fact, the fact that the nozzle is diverging serves to slow the air down upon exit -- which, as mentioned earlier in this thread, is a good thing in terms of port chuffing/noise. I really doubt that the Klipsch engineers can say with straight faces that the shape of the new ports provide any tangible benefits over run-of-the-mill flared ports -- if so, I'd love to hear that logic. But the ports certainly do match the design aesthetic of the speakers (heck, they look great), and honestly, that's good enough for me. To use one of moray james' favorite phrases, there's no need to "yellow button" the reasoning behind the new ports. As far as the other statements being spin - I really don't have a strong feeling one way or the other. I think that without a complete redesign incorporating a new philosophy, minor tweaks from generation to generation are what are going to ensure that the Reference line undergoes continuous improvement. Overall I'm pleased with what I've seen so far -- the changes seem like they've kept costs down, will likely improve performance (even if only marginally), updated the aesthetics of the line, and maintained the Reference line's value relative to the competition. Edited January 9, 2015 by Schwa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted January 9, 2015 Author Moderators Share Posted January 9, 2015 OH Yeah like that's gonna fly, what moron is responsible for doing this?. If you can't figure this one out don't ask. Best regards Moray James. Did we really just go back to middle school name calling? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Chad Posted January 9, 2015 Administrators Share Posted January 9, 2015 OH Yeah like that's gonna fly, what moron is responsible for doing this?. If you can't figure this one out don't ask. Best regards Moray James. Did we really just go back to middle school name calling? And he wonders why we are reluctant to answer his legitimate questions. (yet still try to do when we can) Also, Thanks Jay and Andy for the additional insight. Jay's right guys, there are some things we just CAN'T give away, but when/if we can, we'd love to help people understand the methods behind the madness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Chief bonehead Posted January 9, 2015 Klipsch Employees Share Posted January 9, 2015 And you knew PWK pretty good did you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Chief bonehead Posted January 9, 2015 Klipsch Employees Share Posted January 9, 2015 Tractrix flare ports provide SIGNIFICANT advantages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Chief bonehead Posted January 9, 2015 Klipsch Employees Share Posted January 9, 2015 There are a lot of opinions on this thread that assume what pwk would say and do. I knew paul for quite a few years and i am still careful not to assume what paul would say or do. We ought to take the "for sure" stances that paul had and emphasis that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveWJr Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I don't expect that you would replace good for poor. I would be interested in seeing raw response curves showing the benefit of the new metal cone treatment over older anodized cones of similar thickness. Metal cone ring badly and that has to be controlled (damped) and even then steep filters are required to bury their breakup. What about your new tweeters are you using a half round poly suspension of some sort? Deep drawn one piece dome/formers make for tremendous thermal dissipation but that is no new idea in this industry. You need to tell us something of worth. I am seeing too much spin around here. Tractrix vents oh good show they look cool do you bother to use a similar profile inside the cabinet where the customer does not see? I see reflex vents on the back side of bookshelf speakers that so often get shoved up to the wall. I see hang on the wall hooks on the same bookshelf speaker really helps those vent to work slapped up against the wall. Yellow button territory must be hard. Best regards Moray James. My friend, you look at this too simply. Were we to tell you that just "x" change makes an enormous difference, then it means that the previous generation was not well engineered. We do not play that sort of engineering game, which I'm sure you know as you own Klipsch products. What you need to realize is that transducer design specifically is almost always a "greater than sum of parts" sort of deal. You reduce some flux modulation here with "x" feature, not a huge deal. You optimize the coil winding using "y" geometry, not a huge deal. You improve the former by using "z" material to lower damping, also not a huge deal. You introduce a larger diameter magnet, again...not a huge deal. This continues until the net result is a driver with so many slightly improved features, that the net performance is improved and improved measurably so. I will give you an example. Let's say a woofer's magnet is increased by 5mm in height. You are asking for curves proving this change's worth . In reality it was done to allow for more excursion, as the coil length on the woofer had been increased, so the linear suspension travel was increased to take advantage of it. The net result was a driver capable of deeper extension, but it now needs more mechanical clearance, hence, thicker magnet. That single 5mm change in itself isn't what created the overall superior driver. Hope this helps. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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