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Sherbourn Amp Problems


Youthman

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I've owned 200 wpc amps for several years now. I just flew up today to visit with Wakejunkie after his 3 strokes. He is using a Denon 90 wpc receiver (maybe less) and I told him he does not need an amp to power his setup which is (3) RF7ii and (4) RS35. We had it up to as loud as 110db which is well above typical listening levels and his receiver was still going strong. Yesterday FedEx was supposed to deliver the Onkyo TX-NR1008 (135 wpc) I shipped to him on Monday but the roads have delayed shipping for the past two days. We are hoping it comes in tomorrow.

I'm beginning to see just how efficient Klipsch speakers are.

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Glad to see you see that the La Scals don't need external amps. :) I know you want to do everything for the least expense and in this situation that is all you need. If you want equipment to show off to everyone go separates, but there is no need with your setup, plus your La Scalas are being crossed over to subs so there is even less power demand since horns are an easier load than big woofers. :0

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No one said need, but it certainly does make a difference if you seriously think that a single receiver power supply can sustain reference listening levels with all channels driven over a dedicated amplifer with 7 individual power supplies for each channel without some kind of degradation in sound you are seriously fooling yourself.  Either that or you cannot distinguish distortion.  For everyday listening and moderate HT levels a receiver should be sufficient, but you will still not get the powerful dynamics and immediate impact that a dedicated amplifier with lots of headroom can provide.

 

Separate components will always be better than a receiver period.  A receiver is a compromise.

 

I have had a few Denon receivers over the years, 3300, 4800, 5800 and when driven hard the bass will thin out even with highly efficient speakers.  I think I was running 4 Klipschorn's at the with a La Scala center.  They can suck up more power than you think.  YMMV

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No one said need, but it certainly does make a difference if you seriously think that a single receiver power supply can sustain reference listening levels with all channels driven over a dedicated amplifer with 7 individual power supplies for each channel without some kind of degradation in sound you are seriously fooling yourself.  Either that or you cannot distinguish distortion.  For everyday listening and moderate HT levels a receiver should be sufficient, but you will still not get the powerful dynamics and immediate impact that a dedicated amplifier with lots of headroom can provide.

 

Separate components will always be better than a receiver period.  A receiver is a compromise.

 

I have had a few Denon receivers over the years, 3300, 4800, 5800 and when driven hard the bass will thin out even with highly efficient speakers.  I think I was running 4 Klipschorn's at the with a La Scala center.  They can suck up more power than you think.  YMMV

I disagree... There is no way that virtually any AVR rated at 100wpch is ever going to run out of steam pushing 3 La Scalas to reference levels. It has never even been proven that people can hear the difference between 2 amplifiers in a blind listening test (other than pure chance). I have tested power draw from the wall with La Scalas, and they are exactly the same as turning on the amp. You only need 2 watts to hit reference levels with LaScalas. My T-chip amps with wall warts are not even taxed. There was an article recently where a person that used to do double blind testing setup a nice tube amp and a cheap amp, but didn't tell anyone that they were both cheap amps just the tube amp had tubes attached to it that glowed when turned on. Both amps were identical but most people claimed the tube amp sounded better... The point was people are fooled by what they are told to expect from the demo.

 

Don't forget Paul Klipsch's famous words "What the world needs is a good 5 watt amplifier"

Edited by ellisr63
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Before my trip to visit Wakejunkie, the repair tech had called and gave me an estimate of $280 but could do $260. I had told him it was more than I had expected and wanted to think about it.

Today I received a call from the owner of Jersey Jims about the amp. I told him it took 3 weeks to get the quote, I just spent $160 for them to repair my Onkyo and I wasn't sure if it's worth the repair.

He tells me the amp is working great and he will guarantee the other channels for 90 days. Say huh? You repaired my amp without approval? What's up with that. He said he would work with me on payments if I needed to and he would hate for the repair tech to have to remove the parts. He said there were 2 caps replaced and some mosfets. I told him I would think about it and give him a call back tomorrow.

After speaking with him I called my friend who used to own and electronics repair shop and he believes they're charging a ridiculous amount. Now granted he does not repair nowadays for profit and typically repairs for under $100. He said he could probably repair the amp for $120 total. His bench fee is only $15, hr rate of $25 and charges cost plus 10% for parts.

So my question is should I call back and see if they can do $150? That's more than it would cost Adam to repair it but would save me an extra 45 min drive.

I don't feel like I must pay Jersey Jim since I only requested a quote and told them I wanted to think about it before approving the repair.

Thoughts?

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I am not a Lawyer, but i would think that since you never authorized the repair they would have to give you the amp back without you paying other than their diagnosis fee. I wouldn't trust them. I would not pay them the labor, and ask how much the parts were, as that is the most I would pay them for is the diagnosis lus their cost on the parts replaced... IMO since they installed the parts without authorization you are not obligated to pay for the labor, and I would tell them not to do anymore work on the unit, and that they are not authorized to remove any parts either.

 

Years ago i had a truck that went in for transmission repair... They were only supposed to diagnose the problem, and they called me back with a very expensive repair bill. I told them no, and I want the truck back...they said, but the truck is in pieces. I said I will have a tow truck come pick it up the way it is and take it to another shop (which I did). Guess what... The tow truck picked up the truck fully assembled!

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Pay the $260 and be done with it. Place it on Ebay and recoup your time in the barter and some of the repair charge back.

If you pay for it... I would ask for the old parts to be returned so you know that they were replaced.

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That price is very reasonable and I would get the amp.  It is a good amp and if you want to sell it on Ebay, you will make a profit.    Bench work around here is 65-80 per/hr.  The $15 rate almost is non-existent if you run a business.

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No one said need, but it certainly does make a difference if you seriously think that a single receiver power supply can sustain reference listening levels with all channels driven over a dedicated amplifer with 7 individual power supplies for each channel without some kind of degradation in sound you are seriously fooling yourself. Either that or you cannot distinguish distortion. For everyday listening and moderate HT levels a receiver should be sufficient, but you will still not get the powerful dynamics and immediate impact that a dedicated amplifier with lots of headroom can provide.

Separate components will always be better than a receiver period. A receiver is a compromise.

I have had a few Denon receivers over the years, 3300, 4800, 5800 and when driven hard the bass will thin out even with highly efficient speakers. I think I was running 4 Klipschorn's at the with a La Scala center. They can suck up more power than you think. YMMV

I disagree... There is no way that virtually any AVR rated at 100wpch is ever going to run out of steam pushing 3 La Scalas to reference levels. It has never even been proven that people can hear the difference between 2 amplifiers in a blind listening test (other than pure chance). I have tested power draw from the wall with La Scalas, and they are exactly the same as turning on the amp. You only need 2 watts to hit reference levels with LaScalas. My T-chip amps with wall warts are not even taxed. There was an article recently where a person that used to do double blind testing setup a nice tube amp and a cheap amp, but didn't tell anyone that they were both cheap amps just the tube amp had tubes attached to it that glowed when turned on. Both amps were identical but most people claimed the tube amp sounded better... The point was people are fooled by what they are told to expect from the demo.

Don't forget Paul Klipsch's famous words "What the world needs is a good 5 watt amplifier".

i agree. I used to be in the amps were necessary train. But after some Avs guys set up my gear in my home blindly I couldn't tell a difference. And with speakers that are 100+db efficient there is no way I would have more than an avr. Just a waste. That extra money could be used for other things.
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You are absolutly correct.  The LaScala's are every efficient.  I was over someone house with them and we jammed out using less than 1 watt on his Mc amp.  I would still get the repaired amp  and make some money off of it.  Broke is not worth much.

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I think you should look into yourself and be brutally honest.  Try to take emotion completely out of the equation. 

 

Given enough time, because you did ask for some time to think about it, would you have said "yes" to the repair?  If you honestly would have said yes, then I would pay the shop their price.

 

By the same token, if you really would have said "no" then you should ask for the unit back, and let them decide if they want to put the old parts back in.

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Glad you got it fixed Youthman. Even though the fix seems a bit steep, I would maybe negotiate down the price a bit and let them know that you may work with them again because of it. If it is fixed and warrantied for the 90 days, play the hell out of it to make sure it is indeed fixed and up to snuff. If you have any issues in the 90 days, tell them you want a complete refund and that you have another shop that wants to fix it for you at a discount.

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I seen that amp on Ebay for over $1000.  The profit would more than offset the repair expensive.

Most recently they have been sold for $700-$850... Still plenty of profit from the repair... Depending on how much he feels he has in it already. :)

 

Maybe if he sells it, it will pay for his other recent purchases.

Edited by ellisr63
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I definitely appreciate all of the advice.  I believe there is indeed wisdom in seeking the counsel of many.  It allows for me to see the situation from other perspectives and from people that are outside the scope of the situation.

 

Given enough time, because you did ask for some time to think about it, would you have said "yes" to the repair? If you honestly would have said yes, then I would pay the shop their price.

With emotion set aside, the honest answer is no.  I wanted some time to think about it because I didn't get the impression he was positive he knew what the problem was.  The guy said that he found 2 capacitors that were not measuring as high as the other 5.  I asked him how fixing two caps would fix the issue when at one time, I had up to 4 channels that did not turn on.  If he could have provided me with a logical explanation, I would have felt more secure in his ability.  I wanted to think about it so that I wouldn't make an irrational decision (been there, done that many times).  The next day I was busy trying to get things ready for my trip to Alabama to see wakejunkie and figured I would call make a final decision after I returned home because I knew (or at least I thought) they wouldn't work on it without me saying yes to the quote.  I was thinking it was going to be close to what I had just paid to have the Onkyo repaired by them which was $165.00.  $165.00 to $280.00 is a big difference.  That's that part that I struggled with. 

 

I have no desire to be a jerk in this situation.  I have nothing to gain by doing so.  No money saved is worth compromising my integrity, character and testimony.  I'm hoping we can come to an agreement that will work for both of us.  If they say they can do it for $150, I'm fine with that.  If it's above $200, I'll let Adam fix it for $120. 

 

Even though the fix seems a bit steep, I would maybe negotiate down the price a bit and let them know that you may work with them again because of it. If it is fixed and warrantied for the 90 days,

I would be perfectly fine with that.  They fixed the Onkyo and I've had no problems with that.  If they resolve this in a professional manner that is fair for both of us, I would be glad to give them my business in the future.

 

Glad you got it fixed Youthman.

Honestly, I don't feel 100% confident that it is fixed.  Even though they will provide a 90 day warranty, if it needs additional repair, it would require 2 more 1hr 45min round trips.

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I finally had a chance to call Jim back regarding the repair.

I shared with him that I dropped the amp off for an estimate, 3 weeks later, I get an estimate of $280.  I was expecting around $150 - $175 and needed to think about it.  Was out of state for a few days and upon my return, I receive a call asking what I had decided about the amp but they had already repaired the amp.  We ended up agreeing on $200 out the door.  Still much more than I can pay Adam to work on it but there is no sense them soldering parts onto the board, removing them and then soldering the old parts back on the board only to have Adam remove them and solder new parts back on the board. 

 

I could have pushed the fact that they did not have my approval to work on the amp and thus they would not have the right to remove any parts that they put in without approval.

 

A little frustrated but just have to chalk it up to a lesson learned.  I'll just call Adam first for now on.

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I finally had a chance to call Jim back regarding the repair. (snip)

 

We ended up agreeing on $200 out the door.  (snip)

 

I could have pushed the fact that they did not have my approval to work on the amp and thus they would not have the right to remove any parts that they put in without approval.

 

A little frustrated but just have to chalk it up to a lesson learned.  I'll just call Adam first for now on.

 

I have to say, that was a tough call.  I followed all your logic about the issues that concerned you.  I would have had the same reservations, both about the "fix" and about the price.

 

If they measured and found two caps out of specs, then replaced the caps, that has some value.  I don't think it's in any way related to the problems you had going in, so if I'm thinking along with you, I'm thinking I will still need to spend some more money for a repair.

 

If it were me, I would have just asked for the amp back as-is.  What you reached with the price was a workable compromise. 

 

What that proves is that you're a nicer guy than I am.  B)

Edited by wvu80
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