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Reference Premiere Crossovers


fastjohnny

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Hey Everybody,

 

I have been doing a fair bit of reading on speakers lately as I will be purchasing a new setup when I move to a new house in 4 or 5 months. Needless to say I have been drawn to Klipsch as they seem to be well regarded for home theatre. The new RP-280F floorstanders look like they may be the way to go. However one thing that I did read over at http://www.chuckhawks.com/klipsch_RF-7-II.htm is that with 2-way speakers you want as low a crossover as possible. I just noticed today that most of the Premiere line has about a 300 Hz higher crossover than it's Reference II speaker that it is replacing. Is this an issue that I should be concerned about. 

 

Also I was wondering if you can have speakers that are too large for a room. I see rf-52's listed as for a medium sized room and rf-82's for a large room. Can you put something like the rf-7 II's in a 14x17x8 foot room without over powering it. My receiver is a Denon 2311ci and I plan to keep it.  

 

I currently have had a Take 5.1 system for about 15 years so I am sure I will be pleased no matter what I decide to go with. I have been reading here and over at the AVS forum for a few months and have learned a great deal. 

 

Thanks

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Fastjohnny,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

The new RP-280F floorstanders look like they may be the way to go. However one thing that I did read over at http://www.chuckhawk...sch_RF-7-II.htm is that with 2-way speakers you want as low a crossover as possible. I just noticed today that most of the Premiere line has about a 300 Hz higher crossover than it's Reference II speaker that it is replacing. Is this an issue that I should be concerned about. 

 

While I have never heard the new Reference Premiere RP-280F, I am sure Klipsch engineers chose that "higher" crossover point after much trial and error.

 

I have been enjoying my RF-63's for over 6.5 years and the chosen crossover point on them is 1700Hz which is close to the 1750Hz that the RP280F has.  I know I have expressed this many times on this forum, but IMO the RF-63's are the most 3-way like 2-way speakers I have ever heard.  Call me biased if you will.

 

Assuming that the Klipsch engineers are forward thinking and dead set on improving an already great line of speakers in the Reference Series, the Reference Premiere line should express that evolving quality by raising the bar even higher.

 

Bill

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Also I was wondering if you can have speakers that are too large for a room. I see rf-52's listed as for a medium sized room and rf-82's for a large room. Can you put something like the rf-7 II's in a 14x17x8 foot room without over powering it. My receiver is a Denon 2311ci and I plan to keep it.  

 

I think you can have speakers too large for a room but the RF-7II's will sound great in a room that size(1904 ft3), especially for HT. 

 

Bill

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Thanks, I was thinking there might be some deals on the rf-7 II's in a few months if they come out with a replacement. My local dealer just had the rf-82 II's on for 50% off last week. $739.00 Canadian which is $620 US, they still have the rf-62 II's on for $630 Can which is 530.00 US. Tempting but I want to hear how the Premiere line sound.

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Hey Scrappy, I checked out your build thread a couple of weeks ago, very impressive.

 

Honestly I don't really have a budget. I usually keep things for a long time so if I spend a little more than I plan it won't be a big deal. I was initially looking at a Monitor Audio BX5 home theatre setup just because that was what my builder offered. The BX5 setup was 1900.00 so I decided to shop around and found them locally for 1400.00. The shop with the 1400 MA's was steering me more towards Paradigm Monitor 7's for around 1500.00. I decided to do some research and found that a lot of people online recommend Klipsch. I checked out the rf-82's and rf-7's at my local klipsch dealer last month and liked the sound of them both, however the rf-7's would look much nicer in my living room. Regardless my home will not be done for a few months.

 

I guess my concern is, are the rf-7's that much better than the rf-82's/rp-280f or is most of the cost the wood veneer (which is valid in a living room). As you can guess I am not much of an audiophile as I have been living with the Take 5's for about 15 years. These will be used for 80% tv, 15% movies and 5% music.

 

Lets say my budget is between 1500-3000. 

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Also I was wondering if you can have speakers that are too large for a room. I see rf-52's listed as for a medium sized room and rf-82's for a large room. Can you put something like the rf-7 II's in a 14x17x8 foot room without over powering it.

 

I don't think there is usually a problem.  I once had Klipschorns in a 9 foot X 12 foot room, and they were fine -- from the center seat "sweet spot."  The side seats were a bit too far off axis of one speaker or the other to be good.  I don't think speaker size by itself is a factor in whether you would be overwhelmed. 

 

Would your speakers be on the 14 foot wall, located toward the corners?  The mid/high horns should be aimed right at the ears, rather than shooting over them (with some horns).

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I was not much of music guy before I got my Icon system and then went to the RF 7 system.  I am now mostly music and use to be mostly TV.  If you have room for RF 82's, then RF 7's will be no problem.  It may be the last speaker you will ever need to buy.  That may be worth the extra money.

 

I should also add, don't get caught up in the Klipsch XO thing.  A XO is designed to blend the drivers and protect the drivers.  That's it.  There is nothing magic about the XO point.  Different driver need different XO points.

Edited by derrickdj1
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I'm not speaking for the acoustical engineer, however the decision on the crossover frequency is not made in a vacuum.  All the raw anechoic curves from each driver are taken into account - both in and out of the cabinet.  Then the search for the smoothest response, both on and off axis, takes place.  Different filter topologies are investigated -- in a computer model, in the anechoic chamber and ultimately by ear.  Harmonic distortion measurements are also considered.  Raising or lowering the crossover frequency a bit can pay big dividends.

 

The slight difference of 350Hz (1750Hz vs 1400Hz of the RF-82 II) could be attributed to the differences in the hybrid horn or the new cabinet shape or both.  Or something else entirely.

 

Keep in mind that a crossover is not a brick wall, there is a slope; for a 2nd order filter it is 12dB/octave.

 

At the frequency of 1750Hz (roughly = A6 -- the A above A above A above middle C on a piano tuned to A440) 350Hz amounts to 4 half-steps or 4/12 of an octave (=1/3 of an octave), i.e. a major 3rd (or F6) -- which is barely any change at all in the grand scheme of things.  To your ear that would be a change of a bit more than 3dB at 1400Hz - again not much in terms of sheer output (the output from the tweeters would now be a bit more than 3dB less than it was before, however it is also half the power going to the tweeter at that frequency.  Perhaps 1750Hz created the best response, perhaps overall distortion was reduced, perhaps both.  Or neither, and it just sounded better that way.

 

Can speakers be too big for a room?  Physically, they might take up more space that is available, but acoustically, it's more about the seating position and where the walls are...  The crossovers are designed, generally speaking, with a 3m/10ft listening position distance in mind.  If you are seated very close to the speakers (say 4-5 ft away), then a very large/tall speaker could be at an acoustical disadvantage to a smaller bookshelf with a well-integrated sub (w.r.t. crossover freq. and phase).  In a smaller room you will also have stronger reflections (the walls are closer to the speakers and your ears, inverse square law, etc.).  With a large speaker you would be tempted to sit further away for best driver blend, but that puts you closer to the rear wall which increases the amplitude of the reflection off the back wall.  In a small room you might sit closer to the speakers, the walls are further away, meaning the reflections are attenuated (inverse square law), and you are half the distance to your speakers.  So that means it would make up for... let's see... half the distance is four times the sound power or amplifier power, i.e. = 6dB worth... and can make up for the size difference in speakers,  loudness (perceived output from the speakers), or amplifier power.

 

Chuck Hawks in an interesting guy... he is not shy about sharing his opinions (he writes about guns too so I'm quite familiar with his stuff).

 

This comment is very interesting...

 

 

 I also prefer two-way (one crossover point) systems to three or four-way systems with multiple electrical crossovers. Every crossover point creates distortion and frequency response irregularities, so I like to minimize them.

 

... because in some cases it can very well be exactly the opposite.

Edited by Andy W
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