McIntosh MC 30's or VRD's

[Max2]

I have some MC 30's close by that I am considering auditioning, but the price is within a hundred or two of a new set of VRD's.   Does anyone have experience with both?

[Fjd]

Audible Nectar has a few very robust reviews and analysis of both the McIntosh MC30s and NOS Valves VRDs.  He actually has discussed two separate pair of MC30s for which one pair was restored more for the historical intent of McIntosh while the other pair was more for premium parts. There are many more insights and reviews of his; however, here are a couple that I consider to be his classics.

 

A long road traveled with the McIntosh MC-30

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/73988-a-long-road-traveled-with-the-mcintosh-mc-30/

 

News Flash: Peach AND VRD's installed - and yet another addiction is born

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/68748-news-flash-peach-and-vrds-installed-and-yet-another-addiction-is-born/

Edited January 23, 2015 by Fjd

[USNRET]

For what's it's worth; I have had a few MC amps (no monos, no tubes), one VRD stereo and now use VRD monos. I assume the MC-30s are used and not completely refurbished by a one of the few guys that do that, if this is the case I would vote for the VRDs. The 'warranty' and support from Craig is well worth the difference and I like the sound.

 

edit: even if the 30s were refurbed, I would go VRD, my opinion as an owner.

Edited January 23, 2015 by USNRET

[USNRET]

BTW are you coming to Hope in April (I didn't check the list)? I will be bringing my VRDs to the meet.

I don't know what speakers will be used but listen to the 30s and then the VRDs at Hope.

Edited January 23, 2015 by USNRET

[joshnich]

Mark,

Is the mc225 also a unity coupled class b or is it a different topology.

Thx

Josh

[Audible Nectar]

Max -

 

First, a few questions:

 

What speakers are being used? Did I read that right in "recent posts" that you have LaScalas and KHorns?

 

What of your listening habits? How do you listen - loud, moderate, etc. Large room, small room/near field? Will this be the primary system, or do you/will you run more than one setup? If so, what is that other setup?

 

What kind of music do you listen to?

 

I find that the material I listen to brings out aspects I prefer in one or another....although I can say that without much reservation that VRDs are hard to beat on big Heritage in any case. But a little insight into your listening habits and other systems you may have can play a role.

 

I have a work shift today, but if you can address some of these I'll have lots to say later today.

[moray james]

David Hafler and Arthur Radford co designed UL listen to a Radford STR15 or STR25. Best regards Moray James.

[Max2]

Audible Nectar has a few very robust reviews and analysis of both the McIntosh MC30s and NOS Valves VRDs.  He actually has discussed two separate pair of MC30s for which one pair was restored more for the historical intent of McIntosh while the other pair was more for premium parts. There are many more insights and reviews of his; however, here are a couple that I consider to be his classics.

 

A long road traveled with the McIntosh MC-30

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/73988-a-long-road-traveled-with-the-mcintosh-mc-30/

 

News Flash: Peach AND VRD's installed - and yet another addiction is born

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/68748-news-flash-peach-and-vrds-installed-and-yet-another-addiction-is-born/

 

 

 

A great detailed read, thanks for posting!

[Max2]

BTW are you coming to Hope in April (I didn't check the list)? I will be bringing my VRDs to the meet.

I don't know what speakers will be used but listen to the 30s and then the VRDs at Hope.

 

Im going to try and get down there for a day. I have a 13 month old, so pretty much everything is iffy these days. 

[Max2]

Max -

 

First, a few questions:

 

What speakers are being used? Did I read that right in "recent posts" that you have LaScalas and KHorns?

 

What of your listening habits? How do you listen - loud, moderate, etc. Large room, small room/near field? Will this be the primary system, or do you/will you run more than one setup? If so, what is that other setup?

 

What kind of music do you listen to?

 

I find that the material I listen to brings out aspects I prefer in one or another....although I can say that without much reservation that VRDs are hard to beat on big Heritage in any case. But a little insight into your listening habits and other systems you may have can play a role.

 

I have a work shift today, but if you can address some of these I'll have lots to say later today.

 

I have modified K's up front. Enclosed backs, Gregs mid horns, BMS and Beymas and stock LaScalas as rears. Its a 5.1 setup, but I listen to 2 channel 90% of the time. I can t remember the last time I watched a movie. Room is roughly 20 X 18 with listening 15-16' off of the main K's.  I listen in the 90ish db range most of the time and occasionally turn it up a bit past that briefly. I listen from to just about anything from Stan Getz to Tomahawk and beyond that.  Im actually questioning if I really can swing tubes for my front mains as I would like to retain my AVR as a pre and the 5.1 setup, Im pretty addicted to a remote.  I know running tubes through an AVR is like putting a trailer hitch on a Corvette. Maybe I would be better suited with a quality two channel or 5 channel SS amp and then again, maybe I have close to the best sound I can get without going to a dedicated tube pre and tube amp.....and then I will probably need a DAC and so on 

[Audible Nectar]

Uhhhhh boyeeeee is that a can of worms

 

I had similar aspirations of combining a 2 channel tube rig into a 5.1 home theater setup.

 

I took my pair of VRDs and ran them as the main channels with a JM Peach, using the HT bypass function so I could feed the main channels of my home theater pre/processor into it. The HT is all identical Cornwalls. The theory was that I could have all of the features of a 5.1 HT and a 2 channel tube rig all in one. Use my Mac tube rig (MC30/MX110) on the Belle Klipsch in another room.

 

The problem was that when I ran the system in 5.1, the VRDs presented a differing sonic signature from the other three channels, powered by solid state, screwing up the effort I took to timbre match the system (identically prepared Cornwalls). Adding to the trouble was that I had to leave the Peach preamp powered on all of the time, which meant wasting those oh-so-pricey 6922 linestage tubes even when I was listening to the HT pre/pro. So the best laid plans and dreams of the ultimate HT with 2 channel tube rig turned out to not be such a good idea in practice. They didn't "mix" so well. And my pre/pro wasn't the best 2 channel performer - much better in multichannel HT.

 

So I opted to use the Belle Klipsch in the other room for tube use only - I alternate between the Mac tube rig and VRD/Peach for front ends. The HT is the HT and does not co-mingle with the tubes anymore. I suppose I could do better slaving away trying different approaches to get them to match closer, but I gave up on it. In this case, giving up made sense.

 

Those modified KHorns, however, would certainly have me wanting to feed them the best electronics possible. I have dreams and plans of modifying my Belles to a similar fashion, and they will get the two aforementioned tube rigs as a steady diet.

 

Now in your case, the fact that your speakers differ some - modified KHorns mains and LaScalas back might not have you irritated so much in the differing sonic signature of the tube vs. SS gear. But it's a gamble. I am also curious about what you use as center channel (or if you're going "phantom" which might actually work pretty well if you're trying to do tubes up front).

 

There is also the issue of your HT preamp "mating" well with the tube amps. Even if your HT pre is a top notch 2 channel performer (and I have no idea if it is or what AVR you have) there is the issue of finding an amp or amps that mate well with it. Most AVRs leave some to be desired on 2 channel stuff as well, complicating the "matching" issue between the tube amp and AVR. It's a big guessing game. Maybe someone here uses VRDs attached to a pre/pro?

 

Assuming you plan to keep the HT intact as is, and wanted to invest in a system that can make both ends (HT and 2 channel) the best they can be, maybe a proper pre-pro and SS amp combo to run your speakers might be a better investment than tubes. McIntosh pre/pro and multichannel amp maybe?

 

On the other hand - since you seem to not use the HT end of things much, maybe consider paring that system down to 2 channel only - even if you do want to integrate the video sound into it on occasion. Tweak it for 2 channel, feed it a signal from your video stuff to get occasional audio when you want it by using an "aux" - but focus in on making it a killer 2 channel rig. Which in that case a top end tube rig would certainly be a good option. Or consider if possible having an HT room and a 2 channel room as I do - tubes on the 2 channel, SS for the HT. If you decide to go 2 channel only, don't feel like you failed, because a number of our forum friends have ventured into the HT realm only to discover that their true happiness lies in 2 channel, and directed their hard earned dollars into making their 2 channel rigs the best they can be - to which you have a helluva start with those modified KHorns.

 

Hopefully this is some food for thought. Before we talk about MC30s vs. VRDs I think these are the more important issues. Whaddaya think?

[dubai2000]

I have never listened to the VRD's, but once the MC30s are properly restored, they are really outstanding amplifiers!!! Actually they are the reason why I started picking up some soldering skills. My particular pair was taken to a local tech after purchase and no matter which tubes I tried, I was always underwhelmed by their performance - that is until I started rebuilding them myself. I got great support from the McIntosh guys at audiokarma - especially the suggestion to replace all the resistors as well. I know there's always the collector's arguemnte but I knew I wanted -a) to keep those amps - to experience them in their full sonic glory. It was quite an experience as I had no prior experience in the field of electronic repairs, but it was definitely worth it. MC30s - great vintage amplifiers that I wouldn't want to miss .

[Audible Nectar]

I have never listened to the VRD's, but once the MC30s are properly restored, they are really outstanding amplifiers!!! Actually they are the reason why I started picking up some soldering skills. My particular pair was taken to a local tech after purchase and no matter which tubes I tried, I was always underwhelmed by their performance - that is until I started rebuilding them myself. I got great support from the McIntosh guys at audiokarma - especially the suggestion to replace all the resistors as well. I know there's always the collector's arguemnte but I knew I wanted -a) to keep those amps - to experience them in their full sonic glory. It was quite an experience as I had no prior experience in the field of electronic repairs, but it was definitely worth it. MC30s - great vintage amplifiers that I wouldn't want to miss .

 

 

Proper rebuild is ESSENTIAL with MC30s, which includes proper parts selection. They are also "wanting" of the best tubes - one can easily spend near the cost of the amps to part and tube them properly. They are wonderful when taken "all the way" in this regard.

[Max2]

Uhhhhh boyeeeee is that a can of worms

 

I had similar aspirations of combining a 2 channel tube rig into a 5.1 home theater setup.

 

I took my pair of VRDs and ran them as the main channels with a JM Peach, using the HT bypass function so I could feed the main channels of my home theater pre/processor into it. The HT is all identical Cornwalls. The theory was that I could have all of the features of a 5.1 HT and a 2 channel tube rig all in one. Use my Mac tube rig (MC30/MX110) on the Belle Klipsch in another room.

 

The problem was that when I ran the system in 5.1, the VRDs presented a differing sonic signature from the other three channels, powered by solid state, screwing up the effort I took to timbre match the system (identically prepared Cornwalls). Adding to the trouble was that I had to leave the Peach preamp powered on all of the time, which meant wasting those oh-so-pricey 6922 linestage tubes even when I was listening to the HT pre/pro. So the best laid plans and dreams of the ultimate HT with 2 channel tube rig turned out to not be such a good idea in practice. They didn't "mix" so well. And my pre/pro wasn't the best 2 channel performer - much better in multichannel HT.

 

So I opted to use the Belle Klipsch in the other room for tube use only - I alternate between the Mac tube rig and VRD/Peach for front ends. The HT is the HT and does not co-mingle with the tubes anymore. I suppose I could do better slaving away trying different approaches to get them to match closer, but I gave up on it. In this case, giving up made sense.

 

Those modified KHorns, however, would certainly have me wanting to feed them the best electronics possible. I have dreams and plans of modifying my Belles to a similar fashion, and they will get the two aforementioned tube rigs as a steady diet.

 

Now in your case, the fact that your speakers differ some - modified KHorns mains and LaScalas back might not have you irritated so much in the differing sonic signature of the tube vs. SS gear. But it's a gamble. I am also curious about what you use as center channel (or if you're going "phantom" which might actually work pretty well if you're trying to do tubes up front).

 

There is also the issue of your HT preamp "mating" well with the tube amps. Even if your HT pre is a top notch 2 channel performer (and I have no idea if it is or what AVR you have) there is the issue of finding an amp or amps that mate well with it. Most AVRs leave some to be desired on 2 channel stuff as well, complicating the "matching" issue between the tube amp and AVR. It's a big guessing game. Maybe someone here uses VRDs attached to a pre/pro?

 

Assuming you plan to keep the HT intact as is, and wanted to invest in a system that can make both ends (HT and 2 channel) the best they can be, maybe a proper pre-pro and SS amp combo to run your speakers might be a better investment than tubes. McIntosh pre/pro and multichannel amp maybe?

 

On the other hand - since you seem to not use the HT end of things much, maybe consider paring that system down to 2 channel only - even if you do want to integrate the video sound into it on occasion. Tweak it for 2 channel, feed it a signal from your video stuff to get occasional audio when you want it by using an "aux" - but focus in on making it a killer 2 channel rig. Which in that case a top end tube rig would certainly be a good option. Or consider if possible having an HT room and a 2 channel room as I do - tubes on the 2 channel, SS for the HT. If you decide to go 2 channel only, don't feel like you failed, because a number of our forum friends have ventured into the HT realm only to discover that their true happiness lies in 2 channel, and directed their hard earned dollars into making their 2 channel rigs the best they can be - to which you have a helluva start with those modified KHorns.

 

Hopefully this is some food for thought. Before we talk about MC30s vs. VRDs I think these are the more important issues. Whaddaya think?

 

Thank you for the insight and instilling the obstacles involved. My AVR is a Denon 4311. My center is a C7. t I look to replace it with another LaScala as the setup really needs it. Maybe SS is the best direction now until I have room for a separate 2 channel setup. I just hung 10, 2' X 4' acoustic panels in my room, so Im dedicated to this one room. Im just wondering if the improvement with an outboard SS amp with my AVR as a pre would actually add much more resolution and SQ to justify it, Im sure not looking for more power than I have.  

[paul79]

Your only way into more resolution at these prices would absolutely have to be tubes. I have the VRD's, and after my first listen, I knew I was done buying amps. Going on 5 years with them now, and they still impress. They just don't have any weaknesses. I really don't know how it could get much better at any price.

[muel]

I cannot imagine moving away from VRD's!

There is no need!   

[LarryC]

to experience them in their full sonic glory. It was quite an experience as I had no prior experience in the field of electronic repairs, but it was definitely worth it. MC30s - great vintage amplifiers that I wouldn't want to miss .

Wow, how great to hear your wonderful voice from the past!  How have you been, and are you as LP-oriented as you once were?  Where are you now?

 

Thanks for posting --

 

Larry 

[Deang]

It always interests me that when talking about their systems, how the networks are rarely if ever mentioned. you guys can believe whatever you want, but the filter will have at least, if not more impact on the sonic signature than an amplifier will. What we want to know is something about the syngergistic aspect, as well as the listening habits and personal tastes of the listener -- things which are rarely discussed.

[dubai2000]

Oh, the networks are important indeed - I have just installed another autoformer in my ALK universal network and the difference is far from subtle - to my ears and YMMV .

 

Larry,

yes, it's been a while since I posted regularly - still in Germany, but moved a few times - I have been on quite an audio journey (from Khorns - now in my basement - to Quad ESL - to Cabasse (French speakers) - I still enjoy spinning LPs but digital sounds pretty good as well . Hope you are fine too.

 

Cheers,

Wolfram

[sheltie dave]

I have listened to quite a number of tube amps, and between an estate and our stable, we have close to thirty amps now.

 

I have yet to hear a well integrated HT tube based setup. I have heard a multitude of SS based HTs that have kicked *** with ease, and for far less investment than a tube based one. I'm sure tubes can be done, and done well, but break out the wheelbarrows of cash.

 

Max, unless the MC30s have been totally rebuilt and decked out with superior tubes, the VRDs are a better investment at that price point. I would be hesitant to buy a set of 30s at prime rib pricing and still needing to be rebuilt and upgraded. The VRDs are happy with virtually all genres of music at all volumes, at times the MC30s do not like being pushed hard.

 

Wolfram, good to hear from you again. Our sheltie Shiloh passed a year ago at 18.5 years old, a fierce guard dog and boon companion for all his glorious years with us. I see yours has his muzzle turning to white as well. Give your some scratches and love from us, maybe while listening to some good jazz!