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Youthman

First Experience with Audyssey Calibration (not quite what I expected)

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Youthman....1st step, even before setting the subwoofer level, is to turn the filter physically located on the subwwoofer amp (the LPF or "crossover") as high as it will go.

 

Yes, it makes the subwoofer sound louder, and easily locatable, but for the sake of measurement it is more accurate.

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Before I calibrate, I do have some questions...

 

Audyssey first asks me to adjust the volume on the sub until it gets to 75db.  It currently is registering at 95db before it starts calibrating the speakers.  If I turn it down to 75db, it ends up being about 1/4 way up on the sub volume knob on the RSW-15.  I remember when I first got the Onkyo, I reduced the volume on the subs to 75db and after calibration, the subs were so low, it didn't even seem like they were on.  Definitely didn't sound right so I turned them up.

 

Should I turn the subs down to 75db, leave them at 95db or maybe try to do between at 85db?

 

need to go back to this. i think this is the culprit for all your woes. stick it to 75dB and run the measurements right. once complete, tweak the volume with TRIM levels, not the sub gain knob.

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After measurement, it is quite common to turn the knob on the sub amplifier back up around  +6 dB or more. Going +6 on the subwoofer preamp (via adjusting the trim) is not good practice. For good sound, unity (-0) or less is better to avoid clipping.

 

Not saying that going over is something "never to be done".....but just be aware that setting a trim level to anything above +1-2 dB can get into clipping if the -0 dB REF is requestd of the amp at any time in the future. FWIW

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Thats not correct procedure for Audyssey. If you adjust the sub after saving Aud's eq, it won't know you adjusted the gain up on the sub. I full agree keeping trim level on the minus side, most say between -3 and +3db level to keep from over driving the output. The answer is to set the sub gain a little hot before you run Audyssey, if you want to boost, so you have working room in the level menu.

 

For example, my gains are set where one of my subs is -7.0 and the other is -8.5. Once I apply the 5db boost after Aud, the trim levels in the avr menu are -2 and -3.5.

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Thats not correct procedure for Audyssey. If you adjust the sub after saving Aud's eq, it won't know you adjusted the gain up on the sub. I full agree keeping trim level on the minus side, most say between -3 and +3db level to keep from over driving the output. The answer is to set the sub gain a little hot before you run Audyssey, if you want to boost, so you have working room in the level menu.

 

For example, my gains are set where one of my subs is -7.0 and the other is -8.5. Once I apply the 5db boost after Aud, the trim levels in the avr menu are -2 and -3.5.

 

For action movies, I boost the sub trim on the fly with my NAD about 3dB and for stereo music I cut the sub trim 3dB and multichannel music 6dB.  

 

Due to the quality of recordings, of course one size does not fit all.

 

Bill

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Everyone keeps talking subs and not knowing how to fix youthmans problem. It's simple. He has overly efficient speakers in a small room and sits very close to them. Period. The only method is to adjust other channels to match and have offset reference volumes. not sure why some are still confused.

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Scrappy, I think what the main problem is Audyssey is bottoming out.  Adjusting trim will not fix that.  Audyssey may be wanting to make the LaScalas -15db but the max is -12db.

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Youthman.....

When I was running Klipsch Reference speakers in the HT, Audyssey did an outstanding job. But, when I went to an all Heritage HT, I ran Audyssey ad naseum to no good result....it bottomEd most of my 11 channels down to -12db and things sounded terrible.

So, I got a respectable SPL meter for the all Heritage HT, leveled all channels, and never looked back....all to an excellent result.

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audyssey adjusts everything relative to the sub. so if you've got the sub running at 95dB before measuring it's going to try and knock everything down. RTFM!

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Scrappy, I think what the main problem is Audyssey is bottoming out.  Adjusting trim will not fix that.  Audyssey may be wanting to make the LaScalas -15db but the max is -12db.

 

 

You fix it by adjusting the reference volume you use if all else fails. Normal reference volume on a Denon/Marantz is 0.0 db. If your speaker bottoms out at -12, test and see what it outputs at 0.0. Say the SPL meter reports 79db at 0.0 master volume. That means the speaker should be 75db at -4.0 db master volume. Make mental note, start using -4.0 as your "reference" volume, and make sure you increase trims on other speakers so that they are 75db at -4.0 master volume.

 

In my case the 64ii hits -12. At 0.0 it is 77db, so I use -2.0 as my "reference" volume and adjust other speakers so that they report 75db at -2.0 volume, not 73db, etc...

 

You need to find at what volume the -12 speaker reports back 75db, and level match all speakers to it at that volume. IF you have more than one, level match all of them to the worst.

Edited by gadgtfreek

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The answer is to set the sub gain a little hot before you run Audyssey, if you want to boost, so you have working room in the level menu. For example, my gains are set where one of my subs is -7.0 and the other is -8.5. Once I apply the 5db boost after Aud, the trim levels in the avr menu are -2 and -3.5.

 

Not much magic related related to setting up trims to minus number and pre or post boosting of subs.  The sub has a max volume due to driver and design.  As long as the avr/preamp sends an adequate signal, the sub will be fine if the trim is minus or plus.  You can boost before or after autocalibration.  It will just slide where max volume is reached.  If you are boosting a lot with movies, you may need additional wooferage to suit your taste. excessive boosting kills headroom and can lead to amp clipping.  It also make the bass out of proportion to the rest of the sound.

 

As Scrappydue has said, youthman's problem is to find a new reference level on the avr to work with or move the MLP back.  Youthman is correct, the real number may be 4 or 5 db's above what autocalibration is doing.

Edited by derrickdj1

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The answer is to set the sub gain a little hot before you run Audyssey, if you want to boost, so you have working room in the level menu. For example, my gains are set where one of my subs is -7.0 and the other is -8.5. Once I apply the 5db boost after Aud, the trim levels in the avr menu are -2 and -3.5.

 

Not much magic related related to setting up trims to minus number and pre or post boosting of subs.  The sub has a max volume due to driver and design.  As long as the avr/preamp sends an adequate signal, the sub will be fine if the trim is minus or plus.  You can boost before or after autocalibration.  It will just slide where max volume is reached.  If you are boosting a lot with movies, you may need additional wooferage to suit your taste. excessive boosting kills headroom and can lead to amp clipping.  It also make the bass out of proportion to the rest of the sound.

 

As Scrappydue has said, youthman's problem is to find a new reference level on the avr to work with or move the MLP back.  Youthman is correct, the real number may be 4 or 5 db's above what autocalibration is doing.

 

 As far as plus sub trim, thats not entirely correct. Many AVR's will clip the analog out signal if driven too much. An owner of the Denon 4520 proved as much at AVS, the answer is to ensure that menu level stays around -3db, or not much more poositive, and increase at the amp. If you have sub trim at +5 in the AVR and try and go to reference volume, that voltage on analog sub out can clip on at the avr. Even sub manufacturers recommend boosting the subs a little after auto eq if it sets them too low, and their recommendation is to not overdrive the line voltage and increase the sub gain so trims are nice and negative in the AVR. Crank up later from the AVR menu.

 

As far as telling him to find a new reference volume, more than one person has said that. I do it every time I auto EQ, and once you figure it out the numbers are just about repeatable after that. He also needsto find a proper sub volume before starting, as has been stated. Audyssey is not voodoo, you just have to follow some simple rules and pay attention to do's and donts.

Edited by gadgtfreek

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Scrappy, I think what the main problem is Audyssey is bottoming out.  Adjusting trim will not fix that.  Audyssey may be wanting to make the LaScalas -15db but the max is -12db.

 

To avoid bottoming out, temporarily use 12 dB in-line attenuators on all channels, allowing Audyssey to set the speakers in range.  They are cheap on Parts Express. Then remove the attenuators, knowing that true Reference level will now be -12 dB on the Main Volume Control, instead of being 0.

 

Oh, you may have an AVR, rather than pre-pro and power amps, right?  In that case, if you don't have a processor loop, and if Audyssey automatically sets your MVC to 0 during Audyssey calibration, then I don't know what you can do to cure bottoming out, short of using your pre-outs and separate power amps.

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As far as plus sub trim, thats not entirely correct. Many AVR's will clip the analog out signal if driven too much.

 

 

You must have missed the part on the avr or preamp sending an adequate signal. :)

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Scrappy, I think what the main problem is Audyssey is bottoming out
correct as i have stated every time. your speakers are too efficient if that makes sense 

 

audyssey adjusts everything relative to the sub.
uhhh how about when you run without a sub? i can crank my subs full tilt and all channesl will remain as they are now with sub channel trim bottomed out?

 

If your speaker bottoms out at -12, test and see what it outputs at 0.0. Say the SPL meter reports 79db at 0.0 master volume. That means the speaker should be 75db at -4.0 db master volume. Make mental note, start using -4.0 as your "reference" volume, and make sure you increase trims on other speakers so that they are 75db at -4.0 master volume.
EXACTLY THIS!!!

 

*tap, tap, tap* is this thing on?
 i dont see any problem solved in this that pertains to youthmans issue?

 

To avoid bottoming out, temporarily use 12 dB in-line attenuators on all channels, allowing Audyssey to set the speakers in range.
Oh, you may have an AVR, rather than pre-pro and power amps, right?
a few of us have already told youth exactly what he can do to fix the "issue"

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https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/20687837-Speaker-Level-vs-Distance

 

that link is Youth's exact problem and solution, solved 4 years ago.

 

 

*tap, tap, tap* is this thing on?

 

 

Sorry, I missed seeing that post.  Just read it and it does appear, that's exactly the issue.

 

Here is a quote from Audyssey...

 

 

Please note that you have the volume level on your sub turned up way too high.  The –12 dB setting is the limit of the AVR and it's likely that more cut is needed to achieve reference level.  I suggest you turn the volume on the sub down and run MultEQ again.  More info on sub setup

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Oh, you may have an AVR, rather than pre-pro and power amps, right?

Yes, I recently sold the Sherbourn 200 x 7 after buying the LaScalas since I no longer feel that my system benefits from a power amp.

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Unfortunately, I got home from work and had to head over to my mom's to work on her computer.  Just got home so there is no chance of calibrating tonight.  I'll have to find a time this weekend when no one is home.

 

From what I'm learning, I will bring a boom stand home tomorrow, set my sub volume to 75db, then run Audyssey and will post my results. 

 

Scrappy, I'm understanding what you mean by testing the volume at 0.0db and seeing what my SPL meter reads.  Then I can adjust my volume until I get 75db on the meter and whatever the volume reads at that point will be my "Reference" level on the AVR.  Just a guess....but if Audyssey can't reduce the trim on the LaScalas low enough, wouldn't that mean that my Reference level will be in the positive on the volume knob?

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