Nikolas Topaloglou Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Hi, I am using a 845 base amplifier. I have seen so many posts regarding the ability of 45 or 2A3 tubes to deliver live music. I listen to jazz, blues, female vocals, classical. People say that the 45's are really the best with intimate, small ensemble stuff. The 2A3's are better when the music is amplified, and the ensembles are larger. Do you think that the 45 or 2A3 based amplifiers are better than the 845 for the Khorns? The power is enough for these monsters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axz Hout Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 h Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I use a 45 tube amp with my modded Khorns and in a smallish room have more than enough power!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolas Topaloglou Posted February 7, 2015 Author Share Posted February 7, 2015 My amp fills the room easily. I never used the full power of this amp, although I play very loud. Just wondering whether these tubes provide a better sound in low to normal levels.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Well, I happen to use both amps from time to time (2A3 and 45) - I have never felt them lacking in power - even though my current room is not big, but even before -in a 40square meter living room- volume of sound was no issue. Mark's comment is spot on: Khorns allow choice and that includes those flea-powered amps - simply a nice flavour that often cannot be experienced with less sensitive speakers. Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I've heard a 845 power amplifier in the past with Klipschorns. (Dared?) It was some time ago, and my aural memory is rather lacking. But it was a moderate sized den, and like you mention, the amplifiers filled the room with sound. And without really turning up the amplifiers with regard to volume. I've listened to 45s and 2A3 with Cornwalls. And as far as power is concerned, I never noticed much difference. Being a 45 is 1.5 watts max, and a 2A3 is 2.5 watts, the difference in power isn't much. Cornwalls are less sensitive than Khorns, so the perceivable differences in power might be noticed as speaker efficiency goes up. I guess I'm trying to get across, is that the differences between 45 and 2A3 will be in tonality, other than power. Then one has to factor in that the power amplifier circuit has much to do with the overall "tonality/flavor/sound". Output transformers, driver circuits, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I use both a 45 and 2a3 amp. I prefer the 45 amp. I used them in a large room and they had plenty of volume for me. However, when some friends came over some of them liked more Bass and Volume which the 45 amps could not handle. When I swapped out the Mid and Tweeter for an Oris Horn, I had to start Bi-amping, which is something you should consider. I now have a Solid State amp on the Bass Bins with about 300-400 watts per channel, which frees up the 45 amp to drive the Oris Horns. Not lacking in power for anyone now! I rarely see someone going from a 45 amp to other amplifiers. I've had mine for 10 years now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 (edited) As like most things, it's a mixed bag of trix. To answer your question, yes, a 2A3 is more than enough to power Klipschorns. BUT, that depends on what you're listening to, how large your room is and how far away you are from the speakers, as well as how well damped acoustically the room is (how much absorption & diffusion & at what frequencies). In my experience 2A3 or 45 amps, as in single-ended triode (SET) have a very clear & marvelous mid-range. The better ones also have a pretty good signal to noise ratio. The biggest caveat for me is the low-end. I've never heard one that can really drive the bass all that well, which stands to reason. These are 1930's designs and for the most part speaker systems & certainly recordings, just didn't go down that far back then. I have a very generous sized dedicated listening room (20x30) that is very well damped across all frequencies. Playing something like Aerosmith or The Who with 2A3/45 amplifiers is pretty much useless. Even large & powerful orchestral pieces will bring them to their knees. I have plenty of different amplification to choose from, Crown & McIntosh solid state from 30w/ch to 250w/ch, Luxman triodes, 2A3, & Audio Research. My current reference and preference goes hands down to the NAD C390DD. It has the best attributes of all the fore mentioned (or anything else I've heard) & none of their short comings, and does some things none of the others are capable of. Don't get to hung up on tubes. There was a time when it mattered. IMO that time has passed. Even the guys who design this stuff, many of them quite renown, have said off & on record that they prefer their solid designs and just manufacture the tube stuff because there are plenty of people out there who are willing to ante up big bucks for a highly profitable item . YMMV Edited February 7, 2015 by artto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Most of those comments are pure nonsense. Tubes don't know the difference between intimate music and band music. People make weird associations in their mind like "small tube, simple music." Rubbish. The only question of interest about those tubes is "How loud do you want the sound?" All those tubes can "play" chamber, arena rock, jazz, classical, opera, folk, polka or Zydeco. No worries. The 2A3 will play a little louder than a 45, and so on. People with Khorns have the wonderful option of being able to use any of those amps! But, you can't expect gargantuan volume from tiny amps. EXACTLY! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Obviously you sir have NOT Pizzed off a neighbor YET! Took me the better part of two years, Amps, Klipsch, and EAW Stacks, design/play/redesign, then going active crossover Before i got my first knock at the door (Street behind me three doors down) Rooms change, taste change, and you will change, i feel better thinking no matter what i have, it's only Temp for the moment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I agree that it doesn't have to be tubes - on my Tannoy rig I really enjoy a class-d amp. With some modifications this $20,- board is indeed hard to beat (regardless of its low costs) - actually one of these days I might actually hook it up to the horns..... . Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolas Topaloglou Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 I also have an Accuphase, class A, which I like very much. I just think that a very good tube amplifier has a magic midrange... The Accuphase is more transparent, but more bright.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik2A3 Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Nikolas The primary amplifiers I have used with our former Klipschorns and now La Scalas are single-ended triode designs -- 45, 2a3, and my personal favorite, the 300b (*in the specific circuit in which it's being used). People often comment on the superiority of one tube over the other for a great number reasons, however in my own experience with these specific valves, my impressions are that the circuit/s in which either valve is used has a greater impact in the overall presentation than the tube type. I have compared all three in the same amplifier with minor provisions made in terms of filament voltages and values of output triode cathode resistance. Moreover, my opinion regarding whether either triode is capable of what has been described (and with all due respect to those who chose that descriptive word!) "gargantuan" sound is, at best, both highly personal and subjective. The circuit I have built for my 300b monoblocks is the antithesis of euphonic, warm, tube-like, etc. It is a very fast, clean, and open sound, particulalrly, as mentioned above, in the midrange. This triode also has the advantage of being quite a bit more powerful (again in relative terms) to the other two. The 45, in my opinion, has a similar mid-range quality, but to me sounds a bit threadbare in the lower registers; very likely simply due to its comparatively lower power. As Kevin mentioned in relation to his new Oris Horns, it is or course possible to augment the low end response with a dedicated and more powerful amplifier -- even incorporating with what is often derisively referred to here as 'fool's bi-amping.' With some experimentation and the right amplifier, this can actually sound extremely acceptable. Trust your own ears; we all have differing levels of hearing acuity, not to mention likely different ideas of what sounds good or gargantuanly loud. In terms of loudness, the 2a3 (in OUR listening space) is capable of very loud and clean SPLs -- but I would remind that my impression of very loud is almost certainly different from those of others. I also use the 300b via the 4 ohm secondary tap on the output transformers, which to me gives just a slightly tighter-sounding bass response. Let me suggest another option that may be the best of both worlds: OTL. Output-transformer-less amplifiers, particulalrly the ones I have from Transcendent sound: www.transcendentsound.com , have an absolutely stunning low-end response and capability --'one that is immediately obvious and decidedly different from the transformer coupled triodes mentioned above. An output transformer is needed on most tube designs in order to match the low impedance loudspeaker voice coils to the much higher impedances associated with output stage tubes, and do so, as many OTL users and designers may think, at a sonic compromise. Again! I say this with the qualification that everyone is different and a universally correct approach simply does not exist. The Teanscendent Sound line-up is completely different from what it was a decade ago, and in fact includes a new 300b design. You have many options! I remember years ago, when there was a specific class A transistor amp that a number of people were discussing in very positive terms on this forum. I had the opportunity to listen to this amplifier in our system at length, and, try as I might, could not reconcile myself to the fact that yes, it gave an exceedingly nice low end response, but to me sounded not only dry and sheer in the midrange and treble regions, but flat in terms of layering of instruments and portrayal of notes. And once more: an example of my own highly personal and subjective interpretation. Others liked the amp very much! It just had nothing on the 2a3 in terms of transparency and tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Erik, Nice write up and good info about the OTL amps! Now you know I love my Korneff 45 but, I have always thought about trying one the OTL amps. In your opinion which one would be closest in sound quality to the 45? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolas Topaloglou Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 Thank you very much Eric! I really appreciate it! OTL could be a very nice solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 As like most things, it's a mixed bag of trix. To answer your question, yes, a 2A3 is more than enough to power Klipschorns. BUT, that depends on what you're listening to, how large your room is and how far away you are from the speakers, as well as how well damped acoustically the room is (how much absorption & diffusion & at what frequencies). In my experience 2A3 or 45 amps, as in single-ended triode (SET) have a very clear & marvelous mid-range. The better ones also have a pretty good signal to noise ratio. The biggest caveat for me is the low-end. I've never heard one that can really drive the bass all that well, which stands to reason. These are 1930's designs and for the most part speaker systems & certainly recordings, just didn't go down that far back then. I have a very generous sized dedicated listening room (20x30) that is very well damped across all frequencies. Playing something like Aerosmith or The Who with 2A3/45 amplifiers is pretty much useless. Even large & powerful orchestral pieces will bring them to their knees. I have plenty of different amplification to choose from, Crown & McIntosh solid state from 30w/ch to 250w/ch, Luxman triodes, 2A3, & Audio Research. My current reference and preference goes hands down to the NAD C390DD. It has the best attributes of all the fore mentioned (or anything else I've heard) & none of their short comings, and does some things none of the others are capable of. Don't get to hung up on tubes. There was a time when it mattered. IMO that time has passed. Even the guys who design this stuff, many of them quite renown, have said off & on record that they prefer their solid designs and just manufacture the tube stuff because there are plenty of people out there who are willing to ante up big bucks for a highly profitable item . YMMV Wonder if you could post a link to some of these comments by these builders, I am curious to see who feels this way. I personally have never read a comment like this from any builder To the OP question The answer depends on you preferred listening levels, and since you already stated you listen at loud levels, It would be a good idea to keep your current amp. If you want another amp for lower level listening I vote the 45............................If you want the best of both worlds the Bi-Amp and 1 set up will do both VERY NICELY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolas Topaloglou Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 I have a nice subwoofer, the WHT bass clef: http://www.whtspeakers.com/sub.htm http://www.bonoaudio.com/zb41/zboard.php?id=whte&page=1&sn1=&divpage=1&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=1&PHPSESSID=d53f4a63e4a663282fdf1c7fb7eb452f which helps a lot. So, even if the small tubes are weak in the bass, I can manage to have enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik2A3 Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 http://www.transcendentsound.com/Transcendent/Mini_Beast.html The new 4 watt (12 bridged) single-ended SEOTL. As an owner of the first one he designed (and he is someone I know for a fact does NOT think the time for tubes has come and gone -- quite the contrary), I have not heard this newer version, but it apparently reaaly good. Power-wise, the closest in the lineup right now is the 300b OTL, that uses a total of 8 300bs for 1.5 watts/channel. Despite it's similarity to the 45 in terms of power output, it is supposed to be astonishingly good sounding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik2A3 Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Doubtless there are those that will dutifully shrug a shoulder at such small power. If that's the case, such a mindset might find the so-called Transcendent Sound 'Beast' more to his or her liking: 120 OTL watts into an 8 ohm load. Designing a conventional transformer-coupled amp is comparatively straightforward once one has a certain level of understanding and experience under one's belt (or one's hat); designing a quiet, balanced, and reliable high-power OTL is considerably more challenging. There are, of course, other companies that offer OTL amps. Check the price tags on some of them. http://www.transcendentsound.com/Transcendent/Transcendent_Sound_BEAST_OTL_Tube_Amp.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolas Topaloglou Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 They make very good OTL as well as SET amplifiers, although prices are very high.. http://www.aries-cerat.eu/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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