K-400 revisited....

[dubai2000]

I don't know how often it has been said that the K-400 is one of the design features in a Khorn that can be improved on. So once I got alternatives (Altec 511B or EV-120SM) I never bothered about the original.

Some months ago I must have read a bit about Paul Klipsch here in the history section and well, why not give those K-400 a try. I admit I didn't expect much - definitely not much of a positive impression. But lo and behold, compared to the Altec I find the K-400 in do way inferior. It has a different tone which actually strikes me as warmer (as if it is more suitable to the crossover frequency to the bass than the Altec).....or my hearing curve has changed (after all I am not getting any younger.... ). I certainly do not hear "glare" or "harshness" - attributes often connected to the K-400. On the contrary - I actually find the Khorns more balanced overall than using the Altec horn.

Will that be my horn of choice from now on? Experience suggests that taste in sound reproduction changes and who knows what I am going to try in the future. I think what has made me change my reaction to the K-400 is also related to other (non-horn) speakers which might have opened my ears to different (but also valid) ways of presenting music.

Anyway, I am wondering: am I the only one here who has made such an experience? How many of you have actually retried the once discared components and seen them in a new light (so to speak)?

 

Wolfram

[OO1]

Paul  Klipsch was in fact dead right on all of his creations - the k400 dates back to 64 -half a decade , if is was good enough for PWK then I would think that it deserves our respect -  the day that Klipsch will retire the k401 and replace it with a newer concept - I will take note -

[moray james]

you are also comparing drives on horns don't forget that. The driver must match the horn and very many don't do that well or very well. The exit angle of the driver must equal the entrance angle of the horn and of course exit diametre of the horn must match the entrance diametre of the horn as well if you want the best possible performance of both the driver and the horn combination.It is uncommon to see manufacturers pay this kind of attention to this but they do on occasion, look at the cut away photos of the JBL LE85 which shot the exponential horn profile starting inside the compression driver at the exit of the phase plug and seamlessly running to the mouth of the trumpet horn. That is how a driver an horn should be mated to obtain optimum performance. Sorry I do have pictures but cannot attach them. If I find one I will attach it for you to see. Best regards Moray James.

Edited February 8, 2015 by moray james

[OO1]

you are also comparing drives on horns don't forget that. The driver must match the horn and very many don't do that well or very well. The exit angle of the driver must equal the entrance angle of the horn and of course exit diametre of the horn must match the entrance diametre of the horn as well if you want the best possible performance of both the driver and the horn combination.It is uncommon to see manufacturers pay this kind of attention to this but they do on occasion, look at the cut away photos of the JBL LE85 which shot the exponential horn profile starting inside the compression driver at the exit of the phase plug and seamlessly running to the mouth of the trumpet horn. That is how a driver an horn should be mated to obtain optimum performance. Sorry I do have pictures but cannot attach them. If I find one I will attach it for you to see. Best regards Moray James.

you are saying that the K55 V -k51 v - k55 m are perfect fits for the k400-k401 or k600-k700 -  - are the k53 the same with the k701

[Coytee]

Anyway, I am wondering: am I the only one here who has made such an experience? How many of you have actually retried the once discared components and seen them in a new light (so to speak)?

 

About a year after I sold my Khorns, I went over to someone's house and listened to his Khorns.  I had in the meantime, become accustomed to the sound of the much larger and 2" horn, the K402.

 

He turned things up.....  and for the first time in my life, I finally understood what people talk about when they say the Khorn gets congested.  The word congested describes perfectly what I was hearing.

 

Was it the room, was it the crossover, was it the K400....?  I don't know, probably a bit of all.

 

None the less, that experience did leave me with a much higher appreciation of what a 2" format can do for you.

[OO1]

you are comparing a 150$ horn with driver used to an 900$ horn used , I would be congested as well in that I would need 1800$ to feel the difference - but I agree totaly - after all it is used in the jubilee and the cinema series -

[Coytee]

Yep, I know there is a cost difference.  He did however, ask if anyone returned to listen to a K400 to see it in a new light.  I did and (unfortunately) the new light wasn't as favorable as I had previously thought.

[OO1]

Yep, I know there is a cost difference.  He did however, ask if anyone returned to listen to a K400 to see it in a new light.  I did and (unfortunately) the new light wasn't as favorable as I had previously thought.

the k 402 you sampled was coupled to which driver

[minermark]

My wife was the one to notice the "Horn" Sound was gone in firing up my new current system a year ago.

The Quick story:

For well over a year, i did what Earl was/is doing, the wife and i had a 1000 mile radius, and money was not that much of a biggie, not when it comes to building a great speaker system.

End of story, iv got Bells/Khorns, im crankin stacked Scallas, Pumping tubes, SS, everything, still not good enough.

Sold the Scallas, now have enough to buy the EAW stacks, upon firing them up in the cave, the wife says, more than enough and "Closer" to the "Sound" we are looking for, but missing the "Horn" sound. selling the splits to Justin Webber (and delivering them) he was selling the K400 horns out of the Splits i just sold him, so i bought them, pulled one 8" mid from my EAW stacks and installed the k400 in each.

Pizzed Off neighbor here i come......yeah baby.

P.S. the wife got the Khorns.

 

If you look at the Pic close, you will see the k400 in the upper Mid section, and NO i do not give a chit about looks.

Edited February 8, 2015 by minermark

[jimjimbo]

I like the slots.....is it an oldie?

[minermark]

I like the slots.....is it an oldie?

Dam thing was the old "Dollar Slot" remember those ?

Belongs to a farmer friend, he had just brought them home from Reno when i pulled in his driveway, told him, hey, i want to barrow this one, took it home and stuck it in the wifes hobby room, just to blow her away, it worked, told her she's no longer going to Reno with me, she has her OWN machine!, i messed with her good !      

[moray james]

you are also comparing drives on horns don't forget that. The driver must match the horn and very many don't do that well or very well. The exit angle of the driver must equal the entrance angle of the horn and of course exit diametre of the horn must match the entrance diametre of the horn as well if you want the best possible performance of both the driver and the horn combination.It is uncommon to see manufacturers pay this kind of attention to this but they do on occasion, look at the cut away photos of the JBL LE85 which shot the exponential horn profile starting inside the compression driver at the exit of the phase plug and seamlessly running to the mouth of the trumpet horn. That is how a driver an horn should be mated to obtain optimum performance. Sorry I do have pictures but cannot attach them. If I find one I will attach it for you to see. Best regards Moray James.

you are saying that the K55 V -k51 v - k55 m are perfect fits for the k400-k401 or k600-k700 -  - are the k53 the same with the k701

No I am not saying that at all. I have not measured or checked. I am saying that very few manufacturers go to the trouble of making perfect matches. Do not assume that they always do JBL does not and I am sure PWK did not either. Best regards Moray James.

Edited February 8, 2015 by moray james

[dubai2000]

The perfect fit between horn and driver - interesting point you are raising. Currently I am using the (new to me) Altec 808 - which should be a pretty good match for the 511B (one assumes), but the same driver (with adapters) on the K-400 sounds on the whole more balanced - right now....go figure .

 

Wolfram

[OO1]

The perfect fit between horn and driver - interesting point you are raising. Currently I am using the (new to me) Altec 808 - which should be a pretty good match for the 511B (one assumes), but the same driver (with adapters) on the K-400 sounds on the whole more balanced - right now....go figure .

 

Wolfram

plus you can change the symbiotic diaphragm to an aluminum one for better sound -or is it that you like the symbiotic for the mids -

[Marvel]

Wolfram,

How loud do you listen to your system? Up to around 75-80 or so db, it will sound pretty good. I don't think Richard listens at that low a level, especially when mowing

 

Bruce

[garyrc]

It has a different tone which actually strikes me as warmer (as if it is more suitable to the crossover frequency to the bass than the Altec).

 

What year Khorn are you using?  In recent decades the crossover was improved, made steeper, and a high frequency glitch above the range of the driver was removed.  Also, the metal K400 horn was replaced by a braced fiberglass (?) one (K401) in about 1987. 

[Coytee]

 

Yep, I know there is a cost difference.  He did however, ask if anyone returned to listen to a K400 to see it in a new light.  I did and (unfortunately) the new light wasn't as favorable as I had previously thought.

the k 402 you sampled was coupled to which driver

 

 

For the first, (guessing) six years, the stock K69.  For the last two'ish years, a TAD 4002.

 

Said revelation was made during the time I had only owned and heard the K69. 

[moray james]

Yep, I know there is a cost difference.  He did however, ask if anyone returned to listen to a K400 to see it in a new light.  I did and (unfortunately) the new light wasn't as favorable as I had previously thought.

the k 402 you sampled was coupled to which driver

 

For the first, (guessing) six years, the stock K69.  For the last two'ish years, a TAD 4002.

 

Said revelation was made during the time I had only owned and heard the K69.

Richard: please correct me if I am wrong but you switched from the K69 (with stock ti diaphragms) to the TAD with Beryllium diaphragms? How would describe the difference? Best regards Moray James.

What makes the TD-4002 from TAD (Technical Audio Devices) so well suited for professional applications is its wide 600Hz to 20kHz frequency response and high 110dB/W output efficiency. There's more of course. The TD-4002 also features a pure beryllium diaphragm, an aluminum edge-wound voice coil, a 5-slit phase plug, a rear compression system which suppresses cavity resonance, and a lightweight neodymium magnetic circuit.

Dependability is ensured by the tremendous care and precision which goes into the manufacture of TAD products. The TD-4002 is assembled using only selected parts and materials under strictly controlled conditions. All products are tested by experienced engineers utilizing the latest in computerized evaluation techniques.

Whatever your audio needs, you can depend on TAD for unequaled performance and reliability.

TD-4002 SPECIFICATIONS Nominal Impedance: 16 ohms. Frequency Response: 600 to 20,000Hz (when suitable horn mounted). Voice Coil Diameter: 4 inches (101mm). Phasing Plug: 5 slit rear type. Throat Connection Diameter: 2 inches (50.8mm). Mounting Pitch: 4 inches (101mm) for 4 holes. Crossover Frequency 600Hz or higher (-12dB/oct.). Rated Input: 30 watts (for crossover frequency of 600Hz, -12dB/oct.). Maximum Input: 60 watts (for crossover frequency of 600Hz, -12dB/oct.). Output Sound Pressure Level: 110dB/W (1m). Total Magnetic Flux: 246,000Mx. Magnetic Flux Density: 21,500G. Dimensions (diameter x depth): 6-7/8 x 6-5/16 inches /173 x 161mm. Weight: 14 lbs. 5 oz.16.5kg. Accessories: Instruction manual.

[OO1]

 

 

Yep, I know there is a cost difference.  He did however, ask if anyone returned to listen to a K400 to see it in a new light.  I did and (unfortunately) the new light wasn't as favorable as I had previously thought.

the k 402 you sampled was coupled to which driver

 

 

For the first, (guessing) six years, the stock K69.  For the last two'ish years, a TAD 4002.

 

Said revelation was made during the time I had only owned and heard the K69. 

 

now that 's a driver - and definitely a cheap one -

[twistedcrankcammer]

Yep, I know there is a cost difference.  He did however, ask if anyone returned to listen to a K400 to see it in a new light.  I did and (unfortunately) the new light wasn't as favorable as I had previously thought.

the k 402 you sampled was coupled to which driver

 

For the first, (guessing) six years, the stock K69.  For the last two'ish years, a TAD 4002.

 

Said revelation was made during the time I had only owned and heard the K69.

Richard: please correct me if I am wrong but you switched from the K69 (with stock ti diaphragms) to the TAD with Beryllium diaphragms? How would describe the difference? Best regards Moray James.

What makes the TD-4002 from TAD (Technical Audio Devices) so well suited for professional applications is its wide 600Hz to 20kHz frequency response and high 110dB/W output efficiency. There's more of course. The TD-4002 also features a pure beryllium diaphragm, an aluminum edge-wound voice coil, a 5-slit phase plug, a rear compression system which suppresses cavity resonance, and a lightweight neodymium magnetic circuit.

Dependability is ensured by the tremendous care and precision which goes into the manufacture of TAD products. The TD-4002 is assembled using only selected parts and materials under strictly controlled conditions. All products are tested by experienced engineers utilizing the latest in computerized evaluation techniques.

Whatever your audio needs, you can depend on TAD for unequaled performance and reliability.

TD-4002 SPECIFICATIONS Nominal Impedance: 16 ohms. Frequency Response: 600 to 20,000Hz (when suitable horn mounted). Voice Coil Diameter: 4 inches (101mm). Phasing Plug: 5 slit rear type. Throat Connection Diameter: 2 inches (50.8mm). Mounting Pitch: 4 inches (101mm) for 4 holes. Crossover Frequency 600Hz or higher (-12dB/oct.). Rated Input: 30 watts (for crossover frequency of 600Hz, -12dB/oct.). Maximum Input: 60 watts (for crossover frequency of 600Hz, -12dB/oct.). Output Sound Pressure Level: 110dB/W (1m). Total Magnetic Flux: 246,000Mx. Magnetic Flux Density: 21,500G. Dimensions (diameter x depth): 6-7/8 x 6-5/16 inches /173 x 161mm. Weight: 14 lbs. 5 oz.16.5kg. Accessories: Instruction manual.

I've heard both the K-69 and the TAD 4002 in K-402 Horns at the same time, and the TAD driver is very obviously better and cleaner, as it should be for the additional expense, but we are talking diminishing returns here. Is it as big a difference as the K-69 / K-402 is over the stock Klipschorn top end, I would say no.

Roger