avguytx Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 I swapped the CF-3's back in place of the KLF-30's and I literally had to turn the bass back down to the flat setting; the CF-3's basically stock to stock have much better bass in this living room. I've only replaced caps and resistors plus extended the ports on the CF-3's and nothing has been done to the KLF-30's. I'll order new caps soon for the KLF-30's, I guess, but I'm going to open up the 30's today and meter the subs and see if they're all similar in resistance. But for now, the CF-3's aren't going to be easily replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 And for poops and grins, I pulled all of the drivers and metered the woofers and each one reads 5.8-ohm so they all match. And, yes, their polarities were right....red wire to red dot, etc. I'm assuming the ports are correct at right at 3" depth per port. But it's definitely a big difference in comparing the CF-3's to the KLF-30's. Oh well...back to your regularly scheduled programming. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I wonder if the perception of more bass response has to do with the more forward nature of the KLF 30 vs Epic series. There may be more midrange/treble overriding the bass response since the CF series has been noted as more laid back. Also this will be further exhibited by the WTW layout of the CF. Being off center of the horn will make for a dip because of timing problems and cancellation in the crossover region. Lastly port location does make a difference. Glad you are happy with the CF-3s though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) I wonder if the perception of more bass response has to do with the more forward nature of the KLF 30 vs Epic series. There may be more midrange/treble overriding the bass response since the CF series has been noted as more laid back. Also this will be further exhibited by the WTW layout of the CF. Being off center of the horn will make for a dip because of timing problems and cancellation in the crossover region. Lastly port location does make a difference. Glad you are happy with the CF-3s though. Yeah, there is definitely a "perception" of more bass and I agree in that it's the nature of the KLF (and other) series that have a more predominant mid/high nature. But, it would be nice it were a little more balanced between the two. Even my wife, who really doesn't care much about it, could tell the difference and likes the CF's better. I like the mids and highs of the KLF-30,s though, so I'm going to have to work on that a bit and see if a happy medium can be found. I may bi-amp the KLF-30's with the Carver M-1.0t on the low end and either the M-200t (120wpc) on the horns or the Stromburg Carlson tube amp (12wpc) on them and see what happens. The low end is more solid on the CF's without any boost in comparison to when the KLF's have boost on the bass. If it gets down to placement, distance from wall, settings, etc., the CF-3's will be the winner here. But, I'm not giving up on the KLF's just yet. Edited February 19, 2015 by avguytx 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 An l-pad vs the straps maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 An l-pad vs the straps maybe. You lost me on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I wonder if the perception of more bass response has to do with the more forward nature of the KLF 30 I don't doubt that the Epics are just a flat out better speaker. I could never listen to the 30's flat (or any Klipsch for that matter). Rather than boosting the bass I have to make several cuts throughout the midrange. In fact, everything is cut to a certain extent but definitely never boosted. The 30's are underwhelming until you do something to them. There's a lot to do.....but needs to be done to get them to the next level....and even then they may or may not be as good as the Epics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cradeldorf Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I'm gonna have to go with the room too. Very happy with the bass from my 30's. plenty thick at my place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted February 20, 2015 Author Share Posted February 20, 2015 An l-pad vs the straps maybe. Now I see....said the blind man. That's "L"-pad....not i-pad. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted February 20, 2015 Author Share Posted February 20, 2015 I wonder if the perception of more bass response has to do with the more forward nature of the KLF 30 I don't doubt that the Epics are just a flat out better speaker. I could never listen to the 30's flat (or any Klipsch for that matter). Rather than boosting the bass I have to make several cuts throughout the midrange. In fact, everything is cut to a certain extent but definitely never boosted. The 30's are underwhelming until you do something to them. There's a lot to do.....but needs to be done to get them to the next level....and even then they may or may not be as good as the Epics. This is where I'm thinking about switching from my (completely rebuilt) Carver C-1 preamp to a Emotiva Fusion 8100 receiver that has 11 bands of EQ built in for the main channels. I know it's the room more than anything that's not working for the KLF-30's and it will have to be compensated with EQ-ing. I don't think my wife would go for a bunch of room treatments and I'm not really worried about going into all of that, either. And I know how they work and what to do as I did that in my last "career" in Home A/V and being a rep for Sunfire, Elan, NAD, PSB, etc. I'll try the bi-amping on the 30's to see how that works with the Carver M-1.0t on the low end and one of the smaller amps on top end. Although, it's kind of a waste of that M-1.0t as it's been rebuilt to sound better and have more power. That's where the other part of me wants to just leave it on the CF-3's and call it good. I'm still going to add in a powered sub or two and augment the low end some more. I do like-a da bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Here's a screen shot of pink noise going thru the KLF-30'S. Kind of dominant to the high end and the upper end is almost unbearable listening to some 80'S and 90'S rock Which sounds fine on the CF-3'S. My wife prefers the black KLF'S in looks over the medium oak CF-3'S, and I'm wanting to like them, but I've gotta figure out what's wrong. Phasing is right on the woofers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) Get this. I'm using a completely rebuilt Carver CT-7 preamp (recapped, new resistors, etc., in all the pertinent spots) and for poops and grins, I turned down the midrange control all the way and it sounds better. Tons better. That's jacked up. Smoothed out the rta line too. Hmm... Oh, and I'm using a 12 wpc tube amp. Edited March 30, 2015 by avguytx 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cradeldorf Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) Have you always been using a 12 watt tube amp?.... Because I'd bet that's why you have no bass if you have.... It takes power to move woofers. Hook a 100 watt solid state amp to the KLF's and the CF-3's will be on craigslist tomorrow. Edited March 30, 2015 by cradeldorf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) It moves the CF-3'S with no problem. And yes, I have a 120wpc and 450 wpc Carver amps which drive the snot out of the 3's. It doesn't take power to have coherency across the spectrum. Edited March 30, 2015 by avguytx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cradeldorf Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) Do you have the jumpers across the terminals on the klf's? actually not across them but top to bottom? sorry, just seems so strange that your not getting bass out of them... Edited March 30, 2015 by cradeldorf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Here's a screen shot of pink noise going thru the KLF-30'S. Kind of dominant to the high end and the upper end is almost unbearable listening to some 80'S and 90'S rock Which sounds fine on the CF-3'S. My wife prefers the black KLF'S in looks over the medium oak CF-3'S, and I'm wanting to like them, but I've gotta figure out what's wrong. Phasing is right on the woofers. Something is broke. I don't know what but your frequency response shouldn't be that far out, even if you are talking about positioning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) Yep....something just isn't right. I've heard these plenty of times when they were in current production and they had bass no problem. And I don't mean I have "no" bass....I mean the bass is very low in comparison to the mids. It almost has me wondering if the mid diaphragms were replaced with something wrong that are way more efficient but surely not. Edited March 30, 2015 by avguytx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Out of curiosity, do your 30's have the K-31 or K-31E woofers? I have two pair of 30's and the K-31E's have less fidelity, less clarity, less punch and have an overall 'bloated' sound compared to the original K-31's. The K-31's just flat out sound better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I turned down the midrange control all the way and it sounds better. Tons better. That's jacked up. Smoothed out the rta line too. Hmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Out of curiosity, do your 30's have the K-31 or K-31E woofers? I have two pair of 30's and the K-31E's have less fidelity, less clarity, less punch and have an overall 'bloated' sound compared to the original K-31's. The K-31's just flat out sound better. I'm honestly not sure; I'd have to pull them again to see. I'm assuming they're just tagged one way or another? I never did change any phasing around on any of the drivers (like I've read) but I'm curious to see what would happen if the mids were reversed on both speakers. All connections were as they should have been per the diagram and traced back to the crossover. Hell, I only wish mine sounded bloated! I've got the loudness on plus a tad up on the bass control, treble flat, and midrange almost all the way down and there still sounds like there's a hole in the response. I'm going to order new Solen caps & Mills resistors and replace what's there just to remove that from the equation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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