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I'm glad you don't think I am singling you out.  I am also not attacking your persona.  I like and respect your posts here, that's why I was surprised at some of the generalizations in this thread.  There are lots of people like you, with a similar background and with admirable success.  Race has little to do with it.  Demographically you make good observations, except I think you miss a lot of poor whites in the rural south who are on government cheese.  It makes no difference.  Taking advantage of educational opportunities is the way out, and some cultures, more than just one, have not grasped that fact.

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The Other Side of the Coin

 

On one side, it is said that blacks just aren't achieving enough compared to whites. And yet, we rarely take into account how "white privilege" rules the social and economic circles of the country. The white class was the historic owner class, and blacks were purchased to service them. The whites developed hundreds of institutions socially, politically, and economically by which they can exercise and maintain dominance. I hope no one thinks they ever wanted to give up their dominant position?

 

University boards of directors, policy making think tanks, country clubs and social registers, Museum and Arts boards, boards of directors of corporations, elite fraternal orders, political office, political party apparatus. These are just a few of the interlinked and interlocked dominant structures which have been used since forever to establish networked dominant structure in the ruling social class. One is educated in the elite schools, has introductions to these elite institutions, learns the ways. mores, rules, and habits of the elite class and advances from position to position as their interest directs, but always with a "hand up" from the tutors and senior members. Multiply that by thousands over many generations and that is how an elite class maintains dominance and control.

 

How easy it is then to criticize those outside this well managed structure for "not achieving!"

 

 

It's is easier for me to do it, as I came from the same things they came from. Whether you want to call me ignorant or not on this point, I just feel they can do the same thing you do, the same thing I did, or the same thing others do.

 

My meaning for "achievement" from what I came from was not having to use government assistance. It doesn't mean I reached monetary nirvana. It means I appreciate what I have and that I busted my *** to get it.

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I'm glad you don't think I am singling you out.  I am also not attacking your persona.  I like and respect your posts here, that's why I was surprised at some of the generalizations in this thread.  There are lots of people like you, with a similar background and with admirable success.  Race has little to do with it.  Demographically you make good observations, except I think you miss a lot of poor whites in the rural south who are on government cheese.  It makes no difference.  Taking advantage of educational opportunities is the way out, and some cultures, more than just one, have not grasped that fact.

 

 

That's all I've meant with things. As for the poor south, I know all to well as I was born in Miami, lived there several years over time, and know there are many people on government cheese that don't want to be. Those types of people get my help every day of the week.

 

I do have a bad habit of not making my thoughts as clear as I think some people would automatically get.

 

Also understand, my responses are coming from having grown up dirt poor and having the same  things said and done to me as blacks have had done to them. The only difference was I was white in a black neighborhood. Honkey and cracker were my names, and those were by my teachers. But I never let it get me to a point where I let it keep me down.

 

I am by no means well off, rich, or financially stable, but what I do have I worked for, and the one thing I have is the urge and drive to continue moving forward and not use how I was raised as an excuse for any short comings.

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The Other Side of the Coin

 

On one side, it is said that blacks just aren't achieving enough compared to whites. And yet, we rarely take into account how "white privilege" rules the social and economic circles of the country. The white class was the historic owner class, and blacks were purchased to service them. The whites developed hundreds of institutions socially, politically, and economically by which they can exercise and maintain dominance. I hope no one thinks they ever wanted to give up their dominant position?

 

University boards of directors, policy making think tanks, country clubs and social registers, Museum and Arts boards, boards of directors of corporations, elite fraternal orders, political office, political party apparatus. These are just a few of the interlinked and interlocked dominant structures which have been used since forever to establish networked dominant structure in the ruling social class. One is educated in the elite schools, has introductions to these elite institutions, learns the ways. mores, rules, and habits of the elite class and advances from position to position as their interest directs, but always with a "hand up" from the tutors and senior members. Multiply that by thousands over many generations and that is how an elite class maintains dominance and control.

 

How easy it is then to criticize those outside this well managed structure for "not achieving!"

I'd agree that this echelon of the well-connected certainly exists and that it is an elitist group.  It most certainly does impact blacks.  But it does not benefit all whites or other ethnicities.  There are many like our Jim and myself who through our own industry managed to overcome significant obstacles.  We have had generations of affirmative action programs devised to offer some offset of this imbalance.  Not discounting your input.  There is a lot I do not personally know.  Yet I attended the same schools as many blacks, had the same educational foundation.  Even in these schools blacks generally did not seize the opportunity where rabidly poor hispanics did and asians excelled.  You'd have to admit that blacks are afforded a lot of support and are not working industriously hard at striving to do better.  It is going to require more than a simple rethink of just our educational system.  It is an old tight knot of racial anger now compounded by political machinations (more recently).  

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Keep the group poor through economic dominance. Pass laws to prosecute them for drugs and get them all into the criminal justice system. Make it hard for them to get out. Rinse, repeat endlessly. Do you understand the War on Drugs? How it came into being? What it has accomplished? Why it doesn't end? Do you understand how the ruling class maintains social dominance?

 

I think once you stop working with individual anecdotes, and see the bigger social and economic system, as it affects large groups, you will see the reasons for the differences.

 

 

 

If you look at our judicail system, there are more whites in it I think. When they do the %'s though per "groups" blacks have a higher % in the system than whites with overall numbers of people in the US.

 

My comments are directed at why are we continuing to make excuses for them? If you look at the few individuals from a standpoint of a "hero" that wwill give you the drive. How many people wanted to be like Michael Jordan? How many blacks made it out of where they were to get into sports?

 

How many black kids want to be a "Neil Degrassi"? How many black kids want to be a Jay-Z or Snoop Dog? It goes baack to what I said, it starts at home and if a parent is living off the government because it's easier, when will they take the road less traveled (Degrassi)?

 

If these famous blacks like Oprah and others would preach better yourself from within and do it with hard work they may make a difference. But they don't. Cosby has tried, but look at what he's in now. Conspiract theorists will say it's being brought against him because he's spoken out against blacks being lazy, and they can make somewhat of an argument, but even if he's guilty of everything, look at his personal history and others and use them as a spring board.

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I know different people will have different perspectives on things and those will be based on their educational background, where and how they were raised, and where they are now. We are neither totally wrong or right on our opinions.

 

My perspective comes from growing up street smart, as well as book smart when it comes to math, history, and science. I by no means got the chance to continue on with my education wants, so I was stuck being a street smart hustling punk. But being that was the way I grew up, I look at things differently than most other people. I personally don't and never have had compassion for lazy people, or people who made excuses for where they were/ are in life. That's my biggest short coming. I don't want to hear or know anything about you if you are victim based in your thinking about life and blame everyone else for why your are where you're at.

 

At the same time I will go to all ends of the earth to help you if you are in need and are proactive about life, meaning you aren't blaming everyone for where you're at. My compassion is geared towards people who in my own mind earned it. Whether that makes me right or wrong in my mind doesn't matter.

 

I am the 1st one to admit I'm very rough around the edges when it comes to "playing nice" when it comes to discussions that I feel strongly about. I don't always think before I speak, or in this case type, and will say this. I do appreciate different perspectives on things, but if I'm right (even when I'm not) will spew from the other end of my body at times.  There are very good points brought up historically in this thread, but there are also good points to be made on why some of us, myself included may not deem those points as something as important as the choice to change things for yourself because you want to.

 

I don't discount what has happened to blacks historically, and one of my favorite things to do even today is to talk to old timers that are black from to learn their history from their mouths, not a book or  show on cable. They have a total different way about them and show the greatest respect for their fellow humans,even though if we look at it from a historical viewpoint, they shouldn't. But they made that choice to do so, and so did their ancestors going back through history. I just think todays blacks owe it to their ancestors to better themselves and take pride in doing it instead of waiting for that monthly check. And I know they aren't the only ones getting one, and I feel the same for whites, if they are to lazy to work, they should get nothing. They should all be forced to get an education and work in government agencies as the compensation for the government monies they get.

 

I know here in NJ, some welfare recipients (not all) have to work in their local welfare office for 22 hours a week, and they also have to go to school for a trade which gets paid for by the government. After which,as long as they continue to look for a job, they continue to get help.

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Yes but that same dominant system when looked at knows no color. Many millions of people fall into this category.

 

If this was the case, how is it that Indian people come into the country and open up gas stations, coffee shops, and convenience stores. How is it that Arabic people do the same? Or Koreans in Urban areas?

 

They are taught differently than we are, they are taught hard work and get educated. Most Americans are not. Indian people and Arabaic people will "pool" their money together to purchase a business. Asian people will pool their money together for a home. The one thing they all have in common is work ethic.

 

We as Americans have gotten lazy to an extent and have the I'm owed mentallity, and blacks more so because all they do is complain about it. We've even catored learning to them. Common Core was developed by a black person for black kids specifically as per his words-because black kids learn differently and need to be on a level playing field. Those are his exact words. So common core was put into the school systems across the country to cater to blacks, and where's the change? There hasn't been any, and states are opting out of common core because it makes no sense.It not only confuses blacks, but others as well. The same people who pushed this into our system,are the same people in the upper tier you are speaking of. The same people who said it's not good to spank your child, time outs work better. The same people who are now saying kids don't get enough sleep and need to start school later in the day so they can learn better.

 

All I see nowadays is we are coming up with more excuses to be lazy, which will lead to a government run country, not a people run country. Everyone will wind up living off the government. I think you posted something on this in another thread. Maybe not the exact words, but similar.

 

I'm not saying all blacks do it all the time, because they don't but the Welfare Queen mythology is there for a reason. Unless you live or lived in a depressed area you don't see the everyday black woman getting in your face because she's owed something and whitey is privelaged. You don't see them personally outside of the news on TV, spitting on and cursing out any other denomination demanding free stuff as they are black and their ancestors were slaves. You don't see them on the street corners selling drugs and putting a gun in your face telling you to leave the area as you are going to attract cops. When you do,I guarantee you look at things a little differently. I agree with your above statement to a degree. But again, when is enough enough? When can we expect them to take responsibility for their own being?

 

I am neither right winged or left winged, I think both sides are horrible when broken down, and I actually can take a little from each party. But when continuing to make excuses for people because of their past,is not the answer. They are the answer.

 

If other people from other countries can come into this country and do it, so can the blacks, or any other color for that matter. Economic and educational handcuffs and all.

Edited by Jim
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Gangs of NY, based on true events.

 

Ah yes, and the administrations explanation on Benghazi was also based on true events.  Sooo, must be true, right?

 

 

 

The movie has nothing to do with Benghazi, the movie portrayed different factions in NY  for the timeframe it was made, some blown out of proportion, some not. What does Benghazi have to do with the movie?

 

The administartion totally lied with their explanation. Where was the truth in that?

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Yes but that same dominant system when looked at knows no color. Many millions of people fall into this category.

If this was the case, how is it that Indian people come into the country and open up gas stations, coffee shops, and convenience stores. How is it that Arabic people do the same? Or Koreans in Urban areas?

They are taught differently than we are, they are taught hard work and get educated. Most Americans are not. Indian people and Arabaic people will "pool" their money together to purchase a business. Asian people will pool their money together for a home. The one thing they all have in common is work ethic.

We as Americans have gotten lazy to an extent and have the I'm owed mentallity, and blacks more so because all they do is complain about it. We've even catored learning to them. Common Core was developed by a black person for black kids specifically as per his words-because black kids learn differently and need to be on a level playing field. Those are his exact words. So common core was put into the school systems across the country to cater to blacks, and where's the change? There hasn't been any, and states are opting out of common core because it makes no sense.It not only confuses blacks, but others as well. The same people who pushed this into our system,are the same people in the upper tier you are speaking of. The same people who said it's not good to spank your child, time outs work better. The same people who are now saying kids don't get enough sleep and need to start school later in the day so they can learn better.

All I see nowadays is we are coming up with more excuses to be lazy, which will lead to a government run country, not a people run country. Everyone will wind up living off the government. I think you posted something on this in another thread. Maybe not the exact words, but similar.

I'm not saying all blacks do it all the time, because they don't but the Welfare Queen mythology is there for a reason. Unless you live or lived in a depressed area you don't see the everyday black woman getting in your face because she's owed something and whitey is privelaged. You don't see them personally outside of the news on TV, spitting on and cursing out any other denomination demanding free stuff as they are black and their ancestors were slaves. You don't see them on the street corners selling drugs and putting a gun in your face telling you to leave the area as you are going to attract cops. When you do,I guarantee you look at things a little differently. I agree with your above statement to a degree. But again, when is enough enough? When can we expect them to take responsibility for their own being?

I am neither right winged or left winged, I think both sides are horrible when broken down, and I actually can take a little from each party. But when continuing to make excuses for people because of their past,is not the answer. They are the answer.

If other people from other countries can come into this country and do it, so can the blacks, or any other color for that matter. Economic and educational handcuffs and all.

I don't agree with any of your analysis, conclusions or remedies. It violates my beliefs in human equality, justice and morality.

 

 

 

Well I guess we must agree to disagree.

 

In my opinion, at some point, we need to move on for the future and not sit and make excuses for why it's OK to not have to work.

 

There was a saying I learned when I got into sales. Don't think with your pockets, think with others. You want to become successful, hang aroound successful people. You want to be a millionaire, hang around millionaires. By doing that the lie becomes the truth. You pick up those habits they have and then you become successful.

 

Same process with them. Or anyone for that matter.

 

My remedies for the situation have not been laid out, and would not be as cut and dry as some of my comments, but I would start with making the people who are getting handouts that don't need them get educated and having them work in the same government offices that are giving them the funds. They will get training, and educated in a specialized field of their choice. They would also get drug tests as I would or anyohne else that works gets subjected to. If they failed a drug test, they would be taken off of assistance,and forfeit the schooling. That would be a starting point for me. It wouldn't be geared towards blacks, but everyone involved. But again this is just off the top of my head.

 

I too believe in human equality, that is why I have the opinion that there shouldn't continue to excuses made for them.

 

When I see a homeless family selling newspapers on the street to make money for food that stay in a shelter it makes me wonder why other people can't do something similar. Maybe not sell newspapers, but anything possible to feed their family without the handouts. There's no difference in either person, one just decides to work and the other doesn't. And I don't mean the family that has a working parent(s) and still needs government assistance to survive as their income doesn't cover their bills.

 

Your post about us going into another depression due to global issues I felt was spot on, but with this one, I must disagree with you.

Edited by Jim
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If this was the case, how is it that Indian people come into the country and open up gas stations, coffee shops, and convenience stores. How is it that Arabic people do the same? Or Koreans in Urban areas?

 

Most often these people are relatively wealthy in their home country. They were the dominant culture in their homeland. They come with money enough to buy businesses. Of course there are exceptions, and some people, with super high initiative come broke and make out fine. There is no longstanding hatred and racism here against Koreans, for example. We didn't lynch them for two hundred years.

They don't carry hundreds of years of failure and oppression.

 

 

Actually I find it's the opposite.

 

I am a real estate broker and have been doing it for 12 years now. I speak with these people and ask how they become successful. I hear how they were poor and had to pool money together to make ends meet. That is why they come here in groups. They were not the rich and upper class in their country.

 

In India, in certain cultures there, a man gets married and "pays" the father with cattle.If he doesn't have enough cattle and is to poor, the brother also marries the daughter. So a woman may have more than 1 husband until the original husband can become wealthy enough to take care of the wife on his own.

 

It's the same mentallity when they come here pooling their money in order to buy a business or home. It may not be that way where you live, but here where I'm at, this is what I've been told.

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Guest Steven1963

 

 

Just to add top Oscarsear- Every powerhouse of a country throughout history had slaves, not to say it was or is right. But they did. Spain with Columbus just prior to us. Columbus killed 1,000's upon 1,000's of people for not becoming his faith. Are those people still complaining?

Slavery certainly has existed in many countries and in many cultures, and for more than just blacks.  America does hold one uniquely distinct history in regard to slaves.  We're the only country that disemboweled itself with a massive war to resolve the issue.  That civil war seeded tons of racial resentment that did not exist in England or Spain or anywhere else.  Blacks in America got a double dose of inhumanity.  1st with slavery and 2ndly with Jim Crow laws that'll really make anyone who studies them in detail puke.  In the early 60's little blacks girls were escorted to public white schools and they were taunted with the most vile death threats not from the other students but from their parents.  No.........  blacks in America got a pretty raw deal.  At the same time I believe the American Indian suffered worse in other ways.  

 

 

 

Yes, but are they being segregated today? Are they not allowed to go to the same schools and use the same education system? Are they not allowed to start their own companies? Are we still to be held responsible for what happened in the past? When are they going to be held responsible for their own actions? Or are we to continue to look at the plight of the poor race and continue to give to them?

 

 

It is fairly common knowledge that if a black person pulls themselves up from the poverty and makes something for themselves the others that did not will mock him and say that he 'isn't black enough.'

 

It's and institutionalized problem. I have no answer for it other than to congratulate those that worked hard and made it out and to subsidize those that refuse to try.

Edited by Steven1963
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The Other Side of the Coin

On one side, it is said that blacks just aren't achieving enough compared to whites. And yet, we rarely take into account how "white privilege" rules the social and economic circles of the country. The white class was the historic owner class, and blacks were purchased to service them. The whites developed hundreds of institutions socially, politically, and economically by which they can exercise and maintain dominance. I hope no one thinks they ever wanted to give up their dominant position?

University boards of directors, policy making think tanks, country clubs and social registers, Museum and Arts boards, boards of directors of corporations, elite fraternal orders, political office, political party apparatus. These are just a few of the interlinked and interlocked dominant structures which have been used since forever to establish networked dominant structure in the ruling social class. One is educated in the elite schools, has introductions to these elite institutions, learns the ways. mores, rules, and habits of the elite class and advances from position to position as their interest directs, but always with a "hand up" from the tutors and senior members. Multiply that by thousands over many generations and that is how an elite class maintains dominance and control.

How easy it is then to criticize those outside this well managed structure for "not achieving!"

I'd agree that this echelon of the well-connected certainly exists and that it is an elitist group. It most certainly does impact blacks. But it does not benefit all whites or other ethnicities. There are many like our Jim and myself who through our own industry managed to overcome significant obstacles. We have had generations of affirmative action programs devised to offer some offset of this imbalance. Not discounting your input. There is a lot I do not personally know. Yet I attended the same schools as many blacks, had the same educational foundation. Even in these schools blacks generally did not seize the opportunity where rabidly poor hispanics did and asians excelled. You'd have to admit that blacks are afforded a lot of support and are not working industriously hard at striving to do better. It is going to require more than a simple rethink of just our educational system. It is an old tight knot of racial anger now compounded by political machinations (more recently).

I only gave a minor glimpse of the dominant system in the interest of brevity. This dominant system creates a massive statistical advantage to the dominant class. Higher income, higher wealth to pass on, higher and better education, longer job security, social pull to leg up children, wider and better connections, real political power. There are many excellent works and studies of these effects that easily demonstrate how this overpowers the underclass.

The prosecution and persecution of the class chews them up from the bottom, making sure that disproportionate number are caught up in the CJ system.

On top of those economic, social, and legal disadvantages, they must also have the temperament to put up with rampant bigotry and racism too. "The Welfare Queen" mythology of the massive right wing media propaganda machine, for example. 1200 radio stations blasting this filth out 24/7 across the country.

All of this forms a huge statistical burden. That's what you see when comparing their accomplishments to those of the white dominant class, and seeing it is less.

 

Clearly I do recognize some of these deficiencies.  But I do not entirely adopt the notion of all whites born with privilege and that all blacks are born disenfranchised.  There are many tales of poor people coming into this country and applying hard work and excelling and most do find self sufficiency.  As Jim notes there are entire swaths of blacks who readily embrace an entitlement mentality.  This is not what I am sold via any media.  This is what I have personally observed.  This is what gov't statistics reflect.  This is what has degraded communities far too often to be some outlying behavior.

 

The chicken and the egg conundrum applies but it is somewhat moot as well.  We have what we have.  Society acknowledges the wrongs.  The systems in place offer access to growth, knowledge and opportunity.  Every American child, of all races has opportunity presented to them for free.  What do you feel blacks want?  What to they require?  How can what we have today be converted into stuff that will actually reignite blacks into wanting to become contributing citizens?  Give them stuff?  Sit them in a classroom and give them passing grades that may not be deserved?  Give them jobs and not expect them to function at them?  

 

There are roughly 45 million blacks in America today.  Do we pay them all massive redress for the anguish their 400,000 ancestors earned under slavery?  Do we allow them to commit crimes and skip punishments?  

 

The notion of generational advantage is nothing new.  Nepotism exists.  Unions of today more readily accept the offspring of union members (no racial boundary, but privileged access) than non union members.  Blacks will have to earn their gains, plain and simple.  They will have to comply with the same laws we all have to comply with.  Todays generation of blacks were never enslaved and todays generation of whites never owned any slaves.  If the gov't set up a black youth work program for teens along the lines of the WPA would it be overwhelmed with black youth thirsting for growth and achievement ready to work hard?  

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My mate Nancy tutored a young black girl having trouble with school grades and keeping up. It was a volunteer thing via a church she was attending at the time. She formed a good relationship with the child and mother/family. It helped the young one out tremendously. The girl is now reading books on the side while making good decent grades in school. A success story is a motivator. I questioned her yesterday about her perception of the illiteracy problem in America. It came down to the obvious. It will take volunteerism and programs dedicated to the very thing we all take a bit for granted. Reading for all adults and children is paramount to success in your professional and social life. When you are happy, and start reading for fun, you will do much better in school and your life pursuits. Reading is the great motivator, for all colors.

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Guest Steven1963

Denial

I can only conclude from reading many of these posts that many people are uneducated, or in denial, with respect to the longstanding racism in the USA. Our public education system doesn't teach it of course, because text books are designed and approved by the dominating race. If your only education was "school" you've missed half of our history- the negative half.

Racist policies are not something of the past. They are still in place today. And the only people who don't understand that are those whose families haven't experienced "driving while black" or employment discrimination.

The black race has been actively "managed" into a deep poverty. The collective assets of the black race are a tiny fraction now of the white race. The political power is under constant attack at the voting booth.

Racial resentment has become a very useful political tool. It leverages the lack of education about racism, and seeks to create an even deeper divide by establishing the popular rhetoric that Virtue is the essential difference between the races.

All the information is available to the intellectually curious. Anyone can learn the history and effects of our racist policies with a little study, a little time, and some effort. The reason few people choose to do it is because it will upset their political beliefs which depend on this resentment.

 

Denial rubs both ways. There has been a war on poverty by the left for as long as I can remember. Yet the plight of the black man could be said to have worsened - black unemployment under the current federal administration has increased. Still it appears a segment of the black population still believes they are being helped by electing democrats. It really does boil down to victimization. If I allow myself to submit to being a victim of circumstances and I don't make course changes, then perhaps I've earned my position in life?

 

Nobody should rely on anybody else to get ahead in life. If you choose to adopt ebonics as your language, wear your pants down around your knees, skip school, have babies and perpetuate the welfare class then so be it. But if you want to get ahead stop playing into those societal traps and fix it for yourself and your posterity. The recipe for success is well known and available to everyone, so why do the things I just mentioned when you know it isn't going to work?  

 

I don't think you should be allowed to cry about your plight when you refuse to change your course. Is it going to be easy? Heck no. Cops are going to pull you over for being black while driving for a long, long time. And nobody is going to change that stereotype but the ones being pulled over.  Societies have been trying to destroy the Jews for thousands of years but the Jews refuse to lie down.  Why should it be any different for blacks?

Edited by Steven1963
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. I keep flashing to a scene in a movie I saw where the Irish were streaming off of boats in New York fresh from Europe. Moments after setting foot onto American soil they were given a rifle and forced to enlist into the Army. Off to fight the Civil War and if they lived through it, they were given citizenship. Not too far from what could happen if we fall into another war, only this time it'll be conscripts from the southern border joining the poor and impoverished already here in this country being shipped off to the front lines.

 

Gangs of NY, based on true events.

 

Say what you will, but even with numbers showing ethnicities, how is it that Asian and Indian kids can do well, but not blacks? It's called laziness and comes from their parents. A parent who has been getting welfare since they were a child through their parents and then onto them,will never change. Why should they? And all they have to do is play the race card.

 

Where I grew up as a kid we had our ghettos and you know what happened? The blacks destroyed their homes, then turned and demanded new homes. What did we do? We gave them new homes and they destroyed them again.  Whites don't go into their neighborhoods and force them to sell drugs and pimp their own family members off to each other. Nor do the Asians, Hispanics, or Indians. They do it to themselves and expect us to continue catering to them. And the white left winged extremist continues to make excuses for them to continue to get a free handout.

 

 

Oh, those blacks! Did they float themselves over here to be slaves? Did they institute the policies of lynching themselves? Did they create the Jim Crow laws? Did they run the banks that redlined their neighborhoods, or created exploitive lending policies? Did they create the racist drug laws that imprisoned 1/3 of their youth over the past 50 years?

 

I'm one of those leftist white guys you refer to. But, I don't make excuses, I simply apply the history as it is, without the white-washing. I have to wonder, what history you are reading, where an oppressed and dominated group does all the damage to themselves.

 

Just to make sure my point is timely, in a very recent study employers showed a marked bias in hiring practices when they selected white names overwhelmingly over black names, when resumes were otherwise identical in every way. e.g. Joe Smith was chosen for an interview over Kanye Jefferson. Mary Jones, over Lateesha Washington. So, let me ask you, is that part of what you call "doing it to themselves?"

 

 

I know I am coming in late, but this is just preposterous!

 

All the blacks here today are here by choice or they were born here.  Let's talk about the ones who are born here since I am sure that group interest you the most.

 

What is a white kid expected to do when he's born here?  Go to school?  Learn?  Apply?  Get a career?  Learn and apply more?

 

Why should the standard vary for any kid of any other color?  Because some some old crap that happened long ago, together with some crappy stuff that still happens today?  I don't think so.  There are some institutional reasons why kids of color might be held back in the system (I am referring to racism as an institution), but when we have institutions which are equal to kids of all colors (thus, equal to what the white kids get in the same environment), then there is no need or moral imperative to "cop out" on the black kids.  They need to be expected to perform equally - not given reasons why it's okay they don't.

 

I agree with the view that those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.  That has value for a given purpose.  However, looking back should not be the impetus for stalling progress.

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There has been a war on poverty by the left for as long as I can remember. Yet the plight of the black man could be said to have worsened - black unemployment under the current federal administration has increased. Still it appears a segment of the black population still believes they are being helped by electing democrats. It really does boil down to victimization. If I allow myself to submit to being a victim of circumstances and I don't make course changes, then perhaps I've earned my position in life?

 

Precisely!  What do you do when the system is rigged?  Quit?  No.  You play in a rigged system or drop-out and live with the consequences either way.  Pure and simple. 

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The system you speak of is socio-economic. Both are rigged. The economic rigging gives a tremendous advantage to whites, who begin the game with more wealth.  

 

It doesn't matter.  You can cry and boohoo until the cows come home. If it is rigged, it is rigged.  That's it.  Either play by the rules or drop out.  No matter what you choose, you will live with the consequences.  

 

Who said it?  "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

 

Mark, you can make excuses, and as valid as they might be, once you do, you've excused defeat.  There is only one way to defeat the odds, and that is to beat them. 

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Since I am the only one arguing against 5 others, I'll have to pick my arguments carefully and avoid repeats and simple rhetoric.

 

My argument is based on the following principles:

 

1. The USA has practiced institutional racism for its entire history, right up to this moment. Policy, law and social structure has conspired to steal from the black race to enrich the white race and it continues into today.

 

2. Historically, all groups subject to this kind of persecution and exploitation do worse than their exploiters in economic stats of achievement.

 

3. Our education system today continues to deny anything approaching an accurate history of the exploitation of the black race in America. 

 

4. There is nothing anthropologically inferior about blacks compared to whites.

 

5. The lack of economic achievement of blacks in the USA is a direct effect of the advantage created by the exploitive racism, and is not a reflection of an innate character flaw.

 

6. Blacks and other minorities are scapegoated by right wing politics through the use of massive propaganda machinery.

 

So what are your solutions to these problems?

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