Mallette Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) YOU think it is untestable. Anyone working in Unified Field Theory will know that eventually, any hypothesis offered has to conform to the scientific method. No exceptions for anyone. And "implication" is not a hypothesis. Doubt you expected this...but I am in violent agreement here. ANY hypothesis is testable...eventually and with adequate science. As to the gravity thing, you only have to know the rules to accomplish the things we've accomplished so far. Knowing the rules is understanding the phenomenon. It implies nothing about the noumenon. When we understand the noumenon, we'll almost certainly be able to do a LOT more. Ancient man understood the rules of lightning. Get hit, die. Like it or not, that's part of the rules of science. Dave Edited February 21, 2015 by Mallette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 The noumenon is a philosophy question. I beg you to please leave science out of it. Respectfully and completely disagree. Science accomplishes nothing until it completely defines the thing in itself. It was not, nor is, a philosophy question. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karsoncookie Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 This thread has generated many an intellijunt and poingnat comments. Most too complicatud for mee. All I can say is , although I am not on the Going to Mars roster, I have in fact told my wife I intand to send her to the Moon. Lars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) Is her name Alice by any chance? Edited February 21, 2015 by jimjimbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 You should be thanking me for reaffirming just how educated you are. LOLWe're still just talking 7th grade science here, Jim. Nothing to be worried about. Well now, that was rude. And you weren't even talking to me.....although my name is Jim, too, two, to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) Good grief. I'll let you get back to your sci-fi discussion here Ah. So you are suggesting that the thing itself, i.e., noumenon, isn't what science is about? Then what does it explain? Lao Tzu: Ever desiring, one can see the manifestation, ever desireless, one can see the mystery. Dave Edited February 21, 2015 by Mallette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) Just a couple random thoughts I've had reading this thread.... I would argue that "science" (as defined by Mark's science club definition) is actually a subset of philosophy because it starts with philosophical assumptions: things like causality, consistency, and predictability. The very definition that Mark presents describes a narrowing of focus from that which the science club chooses to ignore, which inherently implies that something exists that scientists chose to ignore. Believing that there is benefit to ignoring those other things is in itself a philosophical ideal. I would argue that "truth" (literally that which is true) is not fully encompassed within the narrow confines of science. In other words, there are truths which exist outside the scope of science. Love, music, art, morality, logic, identity, motive, etc... There seems to be a cultural trend these days to not only ignore, but discredit the truth that exists outside of science. What does it matter that Dave holds a philosophical view that exists outside the confines of science? Science can only explore whether it is feasible to travel to Mars...it will never offer an explanation as to why one will travel there. Btw, you guys are missing an obvious reality that our sun isn't going to last forever. Things are gonna get real toasty when it goes super nova. I am certainly a big fan of space travel and exploration in general, but I'm with Mark on solving our more pertinent issues first. Although I do think something bigger than Earth, like space travel, would help unify our populations....although it'd be nice if everyone was getting fed enough and didn't have to worry about their neighbour killing them or stealing their stuff, or however you want to summarize our screwed up cultures. Btw, what's wrong with a 60 old person traveling to Mars? And is that nonsense about the dude claiming to be a Martian legit? Or is that just a joke and/or a weird social media type marketing campaign? Edited February 21, 2015 by DrWho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) I am certainly a big fan of space travel and exploration in general, but I'm with Mark on solving our more pertinent issues first. Love your post, Mike, and the excellent balanced viewpoint. Let's discuss this one point, however. As you know, I am of the belief that our basic problems here are insoluble without tapping the resources of space, including colonization. Rationing supplies and cleaning up the lifeboat doesn't solve the problem of getting to safe harbor. Many of the resources, especially rare earths but others as well, are already in short supply and are required for many of the technologies that can help clean up the planet and support its population. While we may hope more are located, hope is NOT a methodology and we know there are infinite supplies within easy reach of existing technology. While the rate of increase has declined, the population has tripled since I was a child and, unless we lose the drive to survive, will continue to increase. Many, including Musk, believe large ships capable of transporting thousands to Mars and other solar system locations will be possible in the next half century. Basically, all the technology exists for such ships except a power source and accelerating the development of fusion will completely solve that problem. In fact, unless compact stellerators on the scale of the Lockheed project prove feasible, fusion ships using reactors on the scale of those currently being tested would dictate massive ships on the scale at least of the largest cruise ships or even larger. Not a problem given they'd be essentially ferries from orbit to orbit. Nothing I've said so far technologically violates already explored science other than following through with what we know. So... Here's a proposition, a straw man. Let's not focus on the specifics but the concept. Establish off world colonies first. The moon and Mars, of course, as low hanging fruit. Proceed to hollow out asteroids as proposed over a half century ago, equip them with fusion reactors, put a spin on them for artificial gravity, and create green space, farms, and good living conditions. Move from there to building multi-generational interstellar transports designed to be entirely self-sufficient, ether from scratch or using the asteroid model. Our knowledge of the location of other planetary systems with the promise to support life that are within sub-lightspeed range is growing incredibly fast. Using only technology we can predict based on what we know now these things could be accomplished in a century. Finally, make some rules. Nobody has to leave earth, but if you want children it has to be somewhere else at public expense to get you there. The cost of doing this will be much less that supporting burgeoning families on earth. If you want to live on Mars, the moon, or one of the asteroid worlds you are limited to 2 children. If you want no limits, sign on to an interstellar transport. Earth population would stabilize rapidly and then begin to decline. At some point, reproductive regulations could be revisited as things improved and the ecosystem restored and stablized. An earth population working towards the above goals would be one with full employment and an increasing quality of life as resources flowed in, jobs were created, energy costs declined, resources became plentiful, and technology advanced at ever increasing speed. Those who mock such ideas don't as much irritate me as make me sad to think so many don't care either about this planet or humanity in general. I am always ready to engage in constructive and vigorous debate about how best to plan for our children's future but not ready to listen to "I don't care," "Everything will be fine," or "recycling will fix everything." Dave Edited February 21, 2015 by Mallette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 Btw, what's wrong with a 60 old person traveling to Mars? And is that nonsense about the dude claiming to be a Martian legit? Or is that just a joke and/or a weird social media type marketing campaign? I snoped it and found nothing, as I expected. BS. Excerpt from Stars and Stripes: "A Naval Reserve flight test engineer and an Air National Guard cybertransport specialist are among 100 candidates vying for 24 spots to travel to Mars through a Dutch-based company, Mars One." These people are the best humanity has to offer, the right stuff. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldenough Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Dave, did you make an application to join the project? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 I'm sure you...and many...would appreciate that, GoB, but between at the time the apps were taken having a daughter requiring the highest level of medical care and a family in mid-growth I was forced to give it a pass. If I were in my 20s I'd have been all over it. The very idea of such an adventure and an entire new world to explore exceeds anything I could aspire to. If it makes you feel any better, my 13 year old son is fascinated. Even though he's seen little of the devastation of my home area of NE Texas and SW Arkansas that I've witnessed I've told him how it once was, and that it was even more magnificent a century before. He sees the tidy rows of toilet paper on the vine and the sad mess left when a crop is ripped from the soil and is quite sad. Very proud of him. He is helping me on my lifetime plan (40 years now) to restore the ancient balance on our few acres up there. The hardwoods are coming along nicely and the excess pines have been harvested carefully to provide the hardwoods the room. Slow, but very satisfying work. I can't save the planet, or even slow it down. But I can preserve a little piece of paradise. Hard to tell if the boy will be a musician (he plays violin and trombone and is the best in his age level at his school in both) or a space engineer. He really wants to reach out and explore, and help save this planet by the only we way can...getting off it. The PAW knows how much I want to at least experience LEO and the vastness of creation from there and has vowed to get me there...and back, in case you are wondering. Much as I'd like to think otherwise I am, in fact, a realist and think it unlikely that anything of my but perhaps my ashes will ever see space. But my son will, and that is something. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldenough Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Dave, when you look out at our universe what do you see, do you think what you see deserves the same care as your few acres? If the answer is yes, then why do you think the idea of exporting our pox to another world is a good idea ? There is a problem developing on this planet, of that I think most people will agree, the reasons and causes can be argued about. If you believe, as do I, that anything we can dream about can be brought to fruition then wouldn't the ideal answer be to fix it at the source? I have no problem with space exploration, heck I have no problem with colonization of other worlds, but I would have a problem with committing valuable resources to doing it without first solving our own planets problems...Don't tell me it can't be done, this would be against your own argument or so it seems to me. Is this about saving our own species, or saving our planet...though on reflection I guess they go hand in hand? I'm just guessing that your first concern is for human-kind and giving them the opportunity to start over and hoping the same cycle won't repeat itself, if so, you optimism is laudable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Mark D. I sent you an e-mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) My pushback on Dave's view is that I see it as a "beard" for Intelligent Design. That is SO asinine and that is NOT your pushback nor has anything remotely religious been on my mind in this entire thread. I love engaging with you, I profit from it, and never get irritated about it. But if you get my thread locked I will definitely be irritated as that is not fair play and that this isn't the place for such topics. Dave Edited February 21, 2015 by Mallette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) Thanks for engaging oldenough! This is the fun part... Dave, when you look out at our universe what do you see, do you think what you see deserves the same care as your few acres? Absolutely. Take Mars. We believe it was once a verdant planet with flowing water. Credible scientists believe it could be restored in as little as a century. Those asteroids I mentioned have never had life, but hollowed out and the materials used to create soil, fusion/solar used to produced heat and light, Shawyer or VASIMIR engines used to provide spin and the interiors could be of lush, productive beauty. THAT is "intelligent design" and what I believe humankind can do. As to other star systems I believe we have learned enough not to bring ruin to another place. While "Star Trek" might be considered a silly concept, the very idea that a man created the idea of the Prime Directive against interfering in the development of other cultures suggests we have the capacity to avoid worlds with not fully developed aboriginal populations. After all, we have infinite choices. There are likely plenty of Mars-like worlds out there without aboriginal intelligence that can be terraformed. If the answer is yes, then why do you think the idea of exporting our pox to another world is a good idea ? Perhaps I have a higher opinion of humanity and what we've learned. Remember, I said we'd be sending the best and brightest. Earlier in this thread I mentioned my belief that, despite what many see as huge accomplishments and great knowledge, my personal opinion is that we have hardly learned to crawl. There is a problem developing on this planet, of that I think most people will agree, the reasons and causes can be argued about. If you believe, as do I, that anything we can dream about can be brought to fruition then wouldn't the ideal answer be to fix it at the source? IMHO, this planet is trashed. There is not a single primary growth forest within several days drive of my home. There are a few hundred acres of something akin to original prairie ecosystem. Galveston Bay, which once produced huge quantities of the finest shrimp and oysters on the planet, has been closed for fishing for a decade and many are struggling to determine if it can ever be restored. I am not only not a dreamer, I am a hard, cold realist. If trying to market the above plan there are venues where I would ignore the exploration, adventure, manifest destiny, whatever stuff and just address those who love THIS planet and tell them they are spitting into the wind and mother earth MUST be giving time to heal. I have no problem with space exploration, heck I have no problem with colonization of other worlds, but I would have a problem with committing valuable resources to doing it without first solving our own planets problems...Don't tell me it can't be done, this would be against your own argument or so it seems to me. As I've said all along I truly believe this planet can be saved, but a worn out field must be allowed to lay fallow to restore itself. I propose using none of the increasingly scare resources from here, as there is an infinite supply within easy reach to handle both the earths and the offworlder's needs. Is this about saving our own species, or saving our planet...though on reflection I guess they go hand in hand? I'm just guessing that your first concern is for human-kind and giving them the opportunity to start over and hoping the same cycle won't repeat itself, if so, you optimism is laudable. As you said, you answered your own question. And yes, I believe the same cycle will not repeat itself. Just in my lifetime the civil rights movement, virtually unknown in previous human history, has become central to our society. Conservationists, "tree huggers," environmental impact studies, and the like are also pretty unprecedented. And we've only started down the road to true civilization. Look up the definition and you may agree with me humanity has yet to produce anything that can be defined as "civilized." It's only been a series of increasingly sophisticated cultures. Our reach into space will coincide, IMHO, with the birth of human civilization. Dave Edited February 21, 2015 by Mallette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 I can't imagine anything I've said that could remotely be construed as a reason to lock a thread. "I don't know NUTHIN 'bout lockn no posts..." Crikey, Mark. 30k posts, probably a fourth of them with me, and you don't see how that leads to a lock? Pardon my skepticism... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) But, since you think the comment was offensive in some way, and you are a moderator, I will edit the comment. You missed it, Mark. It wasn't offensive and I'd love to discuss it. But you've seen where these always go. I know you can walk the tightrope but others don't always do so. Over my paltry 17k posts I've watched topics go from fine to locked in three posts. I am having too much enjoyment here to take any risks on OT concepts that lead down that road. I'd already said I wasn't going to lock it being OP and partcipant...but I am not the only cop on the beat and their mileage may vary. BTW...see you've redecorated. Nice animal...love those. Dave Edited February 21, 2015 by Mallette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldenough Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 I'm trying to think of a way to put this forward, but my mind is drawing a blank...So let me try this. Right from the very beginning of any endeavour to set-up a colony outside of Earth, ground rules would have to be laid, as in Star Treks "Prime Directive". Is there anything that you can think of that would be imperative to the success of any long term mission, especially one of colonization. I'm thinking of things that would help us not repeat many of the mistakes we are currently living with...Hope you catch my drift. I'm trying to think outside the box here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 22, 2015 Author Share Posted February 22, 2015 Here's a good start: In ye name of God Amen· We whose names are vnderwriten, the loyall subjects of our dread soueraigne Lord King James by ye grace of God, of great Britaine, franc, & Ireland king, defender of ye faith, &c Haueing vndertaken, for ye glorie of God, and aduancemente of ye christian ^faith and honour of our king & countrie, a voyage to plant ye first colonie in ye Northerne parts of Virginia· doe by these presents solemnly & mutualy in ye presence of God, and one of another, couenant, & combine our selues togeather into a ciuill body politick; for ye our better ordering, & preseruation & fur=therance of ye ends aforesaid; and by vertue hearof, to enacte, constitute, and frame shuch just & equall lawes, ordinances, Acts, constitutions, & offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meete & conuenient for ye generall good of ye colonie: vnto which we promise all due submission and obedience. In witnes wherof we haue herevnder subscribed our names at Cap=Codd ye ·11· of Nouember, in ye year of ye raigne of our soueraigne Lord king James of England, france, & Ireland ye eighteenth and of Scotland ye fiftie fourth. Ano: Dom ·1620 There's a good start that illustrates this in not a new issue. Certainly the Prime Directive is well worth considering as we move to the stars, but as you say, some ground rules must be laid as the distance between the home world and the colony will be, time wise, about the same as the earliest New World colonies were from Europe. As to what a Mars Compact might look like my intelligence isn't up to the task of making suggestions, but you are correct in suggesting we should thing long and hard about making a better life as those who came to our shores centuries ago were seeking. Mixed reviews on how well they got it, but certainly much to learn from. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 22, 2015 Author Share Posted February 22, 2015 Actually, your point is brilliant and sets off an entirely new set of thoughts. If Musk or some other private company sets up a colony wherever, no Terran government really has any authority. Love my company, but not sure it's ready for government yet. Getting fired on Mars could really suck if escorted off the property. Lots of stuff to consider! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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