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There is a lack of clarity in one channel (I.e., a general buzziness). When I switch the cables at the TT the problem moves to the other channel. Therefore, it is coming from the TT. I just do not know where.

Earl

 

This, in my opinion, is the first issue you need to get resolved.  Did you get the Music Hall TT, or did you bypass that one for this one?  What you are describing isn't in the vinyl.  Do you have a couple of reference records that you know play quite and are familiar with their sound?  If so, I would pick one of those to use for any minor adjustments you may make, you have to start from a known quantity.  

 

While the dealer may be a long ways off, there used to be a pretty good outfit where you are located, Stellar Stereo, a Klipsch dealer, new and used gear, service department.  I would give them a call and just see what they would charge to set up your turntable.  You might be able to get out of all of this for under $50.  I have never done business with them, just looked around in there one day and saw some pretty cool stuff.  You may have already determined that they are not an option, for whatever reason.

 

This is what it takes to set up a turntable properly, http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/cartbasics.html  Galen knows what he is doing, there is no hype in there.  Some people on here can do all of that, I cannot, I just have always paid to have it done, but then I am not a cartridge swapper, I have two good ones, one MM and one MC on two tonearms and after they were set up I never messed with them other to confirm that the tracking weight was correct.  What I found is that unless they have to be moved, the tracking weight never drifts with either of my tonearms.  So that is the good news, once it is properly set up you don't ever really have to mess with it.

 

What people have described to you on here to help you with your problems is certainly good advice, the problem is you are describing about 4 or 5 different problems, all of this could either be unrelated or interrelated.  

 

The static is an easy one do deal with, and it needs to be dealt with.  Static is a significant cause of noise, and it seems to magnify any popping or clicking by a factor of 10.  Get yourself a Milty Zerostat gun, about $100 now I think.  They WORK.  Get a piece of packing popcorn, they will cling to a record that has any static at all, zap it with the Zerostat and that popcorn falls away.  You want to do it after you clean each record.  Playing a record creates static, washing a record creates a tremendous amount of static.  There is no way of getting around that, and I have come across any fluid or cleaner that can reduce static like a Zerostat can.  That will solve your static problem.  I have washed and cleaned well over 5,000 records and used that Zerostat on each one after cleaning and it is still going strong.  I think they say they are good for at least 10,000 pulls.  You want to get rid of all of the static after you clean the LP because the static that you have created while cleaning the record attracts things, like packing popcorn and DUST.  Cleaning a record unfortunately turns it into a giant dust attractor.  

 

Do you have a stylus cleaner and brush?  Make sure that you do, and people will vary on how often to use it, about the norm is after every two sides of a clean lp.  Here is a link to the products Acoustic Sounds has.  http://store.acousticsounds.com/c/87/Stylus_Cleaner  I use the Onzow Zerodust, you drop the needle with the cue arm in to the clear substance that is slightly thicker than jello, lift it up and you will typically see a black dot that gets left behind in the substance, representing whatever goo was on your stylus and cantilever.  It is a good indicator of how effective your recording cleaning is because you can see what is getting left behind after one, play, two plays, etc.  I also use, periodically, something like the Last stylus cleaner with the Acoustech stylus brush.  You apply the liquid with the brush in the bottle, but only one brush stroke because you want to really remove dirt and goo onto the brush that goes right back in the bottle (they have a brush that is fitted inside the bottle cap like nail polish typically has).  The you use the stylus brush by gently pulling the brush from back to front directly towards you so that you minimize any force on the cantilever either left or right.  With the Onzow you don't need to worry about whether there are any chemicals in the cleaner that may harm the cartridge or cantilever in anyway, it is a pretty basic polymer.  There is another company making the Onzow now, which I have not tried but it looks identical and they charge about $30 I think as opposed to the Onzow for $80.  There is a link to one of those here:  http://www.extremephono.com/Stylus_Cleaner.htm  It looks identical in every way to the Onzow, but i have never tried it.  I have used the Onzow literally hundreds and hundreds of times, for over five years, and it is still working like the first day I had it.  Another nice thing about it is you can decide for yourself if brand new records need to be cleaned before playing them.  (There is a great deal of debate about this).  You simply clean your stylus before playing a new record and play one side, dip it into the Onzow and see if it picks up anything.  I, personally, have had very mixed results.  Some new records there was nothing there to pick up, others I picked up a ton of goo from just one side.  I think this is a function of the formulation of the PVC that each plant uses, the plasticizers used, etc.   

 

A dirty stylus will cause some of the problems you describe, but I don't think to the extent you are describing.  What you are describing, tinny treble, screechy, and a buzziness that moves when you switich the outputs of the TT to the preamp I have encountered on a couple of occasions.  One was related to a ground issue, the ground wire came off, OR, for whatever reason, that turntable/cartridge/preamp setup did not like being grounded (this has only happened once that I recall).  The other situation was loose/dirty contacts of the four leads that connect to the back of the cartridge.  The third was a bent cantilever.  

 

I am hoping that Steller Stereo still has the reputation they used to have and would be reasonable in trying to get you set up.  Just let them know how much gear you have purchased in the past six months, and what you are planning on getting in the future and they will probably do it for free to get you as a loyal customer.  :)

 

If they want a fortune for something that should be handled by the dealer where you purchased it then I would just call them up and let them know what the issues are to see if they can take you through it step by step over the phone.

 

Lastly, on pops and click with records.  Pops and clicks can come from pristine looking brand new vinyl for a number of reasons.  There should really be any pops or clicks on a new record, 90% of mine have none, the others have a few and some have a lot, but the music outweighs the noise and clicks.  I had KHorns like you, very unforgiving in the noise floor department.  When you drop the needle in the lead in groove before the first song, there will typically be noise, just like you would expect, the sound of just the turntable with a stylus rubbing on side of the lead in groove.  We all know what it sounds like, it is used in movies all the time.  Crackling before it gets to the music.  Some are quieter than others, but it is NORMAL, and much more noticeable with Khorns.  I know many, many vinyl people who turn down or "mute" their system until just before it gets to the music.  However, pops and clicks after that point should not be there.  They can come from a few different sources.  First, static, which we already covered.  Static can cause pops and clicks that disappear after a blast with a Zerostat.  Or is they are still there, it can reduce them.  The condition of the record is obviously second, on a new record this should not be an issue.  Unfortunately, another reason is that the pops and clicks are pressed into the record as part of the production process.  It is not very common, but it happens.  There was a thread on here recently about Colleen Murphy noticing that there was a particular pressing plant in California where she was hearing new releases with pops and clicks in them.  Several years ago several of us bought the Doors vinyl box set at about the same time and we discovered a very noticeable pop in the exact same spot.  They repressed that record and sent us free replacements.  Unfortunately, when you purchase a new record you need to open it and listen to it right away to see if there is any problems.  Acoustic Sounds and the local place I buy from have never had a problem with exchanging a record, or saying "it is in the pressing, they are all like that, do you want to return it?"  It is very rare that I have a problem so I think they know I am not going home and recording it and then trying to return it.  Used vinyl is an entirely different story and unless you get someone how play grades their vinyl it is going to be a crap shoot.  I have the works looking lps play completely quiet, and I have had mint looking vinyl be so noisy it was unplayable.  I think that is a function of what type of equipment it was played on, worn out sapphire needles for example.  At the Austin Record Convention, supposedly one of the largest in the world, you see the true diehard collectors walking around with their portable battery operated record players so they can give an lp a test spin for sound quality.  

 

If you can identify a couple of records that sound clean and quiet they will be invaluable to you as reference records to either trouble shoot with or try new things out with.  I hope that whatever is causing these issues turns out to be a simple fix that can either be handled locally or over the phone with the dealer.

 

Good luck,

 

Travis

 

Dictated by not edited due to time, I apologize in advance for the syntax and grammatical errors my program and rambling thoughts may have created.

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Here is the quote from Colleen Murphy about new vinyl that I referenced in my previous post above:

 

 

So not all new vinyl sounds perfect. Indeed, Murphy reckoned, as big labels stampeded to get involved, and inexperienced startups joined them, there was a danger of vinyl’s magic being debased. “Some of what’s coming out is great,” she said. “Because in some ways, the public demand for quality is increasing, and people are making an effort.” She mentioned the ongoing reissues of Led Zeppelin albums, which are manufactured at Optimal. “Jimmy Page was in charge, they’re mastering them from the original tapes – that’s really good. But then there’s other records, and other labels …”

She mentioned an operation based in California. By coincidence, I had just bought one of their supposedly remastered vinyl albums and been so repelled by the sound – thin, full of pops and crackles and excessive sibilance – that I had taken apart my turntable, in search of a fault that was actually in the grooves. “******* terrible,” Murphy agreed. “I have a feeling they might even master from MP3. They definitely aren’t mastering from the analogue tape; the sound is too thin. They go on that whole, ‘We do 180g vinyl!’ thing. But I’d rather have something good on lighter vinyl, than a 180g frisbee.”

 

Here is a link to the full article  http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/jan/07/-sp-vinyls-difficult-comeback

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There is a lack of clarity in one channel (I.e., a general buzziness). When I switch the cables at the TT the problem moves to the other channel. Therefore, it is coming from the TT. I just do not know where.

Earl

 

This, in my opinion, is the first issue you need to get resolved.  Did you get the Music Hall TT, or did you bypass that one for this one?  What you are describing isn't in the vinyl.  Do you have a couple of reference records that you know play quite and are familiar with their sound?  If so, I would pick one of those to use for any minor adjustments you may make, you have to start from a known quantity.  

 

While the dealer may be a long ways off, there used to be a pretty good outfit where you are located, Stellar Stereo, a Klipsch dealer, new and used gear, service department.  I would give them a call and just see what they would charge to set up your turntable.  You might be able to get out of all of this for under $50.  I have never done business with them, just looked around in there one day and saw some pretty cool stuff.  You may have already determined that they are not an option, for whatever reason.

 

This is what it takes to set up a turntable properly, http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/cartbasics.html  Galen knows what he is doing, there is no hype in there.  Some people on here can do all of that, I cannot, I just have always paid to have it done, but then I am not a cartridge swapper, I have two good ones, one MM and one MC on two tonearms and after they were set up I never messed with them other to confirm that the tracking weight was correct.  What I found is that unless they have to be moved, the tracking weight never drifts with either of my tonearms.  So that is the good news, once it is properly set up you don't ever really have to mess with it.

 

What people have described to you on here to help you with your problems is certainly good advice, the problem is you are describing about 4 or 5 different problems, all of this could either be unrelated or interrelated.  

 

The static is an easy one do deal with, and it needs to be dealt with.  Static is a significant cause of noise, and it seems to magnify any popping or clicking by a factor of 10.  Get yourself a Milty Zerostat gun, about $100 now I think.  They WORK.  Get a piece of packing popcorn, they will cling to a record that has any static at all, zap it with the Zerostat and that popcorn falls away.  You want to do it after you clean each record.  Playing a record creates static, washing a record creates a tremendous amount of static.  There is no way of getting around that, and I have come across any fluid or cleaner that can reduce static like a Zerostat can.  That will solve your static problem.  I have washed and cleaned well over 5,000 records and used that Zerostat on each one after cleaning and it is still going strong.  I think they say they are good for at least 10,000 pulls.  You want to get rid of all of the static after you clean the LP because the static that you have created while cleaning the record attracts things, like packing popcorn and DUST.  Cleaning a record unfortunately turns it into a giant dust attractor.  

 

Do you have a stylus cleaner and brush?  Make sure that you do, and people will vary on how often to use it, about the norm is after every two sides of a clean lp.  Here is a link to the products Acoustic Sounds has.  http://store.acousticsounds.com/c/87/Stylus_Cleaner  I use the Onzow Zerodust, you drop the needle with the cue arm in to the clear substance that is slightly thicker than jello, lift it up and you will typically see a black dot that gets left behind in the substance, representing whatever goo was on your stylus and cantilever.  It is a good indicator of how effective your recording cleaning is because you can see what is getting left behind after one, play, two plays, etc.  I also use, periodically, something like the Last stylus cleaner with the Acoustech stylus brush.  You apply the liquid with the brush in the bottle, but only one brush stroke because you want to really remove dirt and goo onto the brush that goes right back in the bottle (they have a brush that is fitted inside the bottle cap like nail polish typically has).  The you use the stylus brush by gently pulling the brush from back to front directly towards you so that you minimize any force on the cantilever either left or right.  With the Onzow you don't need to worry about whether there are any chemicals in the cleaner that may harm the cartridge or cantilever in anyway, it is a pretty basic polymer.  There is another company making the Onzow now, which I have not tried but it looks identical and they charge about $30 I think as opposed to the Onzow for $80.  There is a link to one of those here:  http://www.extremephono.com/Stylus_Cleaner.htm  It looks identical in every way to the Onzow, but i have never tried it.  I have used the Onzow literally hundreds and hundreds of times, for over five years, and it is still working like the first day I had it.  Another nice thing about it is you can decide for yourself if brand new records need to be cleaned before playing them.  (There is a great deal of debate about this).  You simply clean your stylus before playing a new record and play one side, dip it into the Onzow and see if it picks up anything.  I, personally, have had very mixed results.  Some new records there was nothing there to pick up, others I picked up a ton of goo from just one side.  I think this is a function of the formulation of the PVC that each plant uses, the plasticizers used, etc.   

 

A dirty stylus will cause some of the problems you describe, but I don't think to the extent you are describing.  What you are describing, tinny treble, screechy, and a buzziness that moves when you switich the outputs of the TT to the preamp I have encountered on a couple of occasions.  One was related to a ground issue, the ground wire came off, OR, for whatever reason, that turntable/cartridge/preamp setup did not like being grounded (this has only happened once that I recall).  The other situation was loose/dirty contacts of the four leads that connect to the back of the cartridge.  The third was a bent cantilever.  

 

I am hoping that Steller Stereo still has the reputation they used to have and would be reasonable in trying to get you set up.  Just let them know how much gear you have purchased in the past six months, and what you are planning on getting in the future and they will probably do it for free to get you as a loyal customer.  :)

 

If they want a fortune for something that should be handled by the dealer where you purchased it then I would just call them up and let them know what the issues are to see if they can take you through it step by step over the phone.

 

Lastly, on pops and click with records.  Pops and clicks can come from pristine looking brand new vinyl for a number of reasons.  There should really be any pops or clicks on a new record, 90% of mine have none, the others have a few and some have a lot, but the music outweighs the noise and clicks.  I had KHorns like you, very unforgiving in the noise floor department.  When you drop the needle in the lead in groove before the first song, there will typically be noise, just like you would expect, the sound of just the turntable with a stylus rubbing on side of the lead in groove.  We all know what it sounds like, it is used in movies all the time.  Crackling before it gets to the music.  Some are quieter than others, but it is NORMAL, and much more noticeable with Khorns.  I know many, many vinyl people who turn down or "mute" their system until just before it gets to the music.  However, pops and clicks after that point should not be there.  They can come from a few different sources.  First, static, which we already covered.  Static can cause pops and clicks that disappear after a blast with a Zerostat.  Or is they are still there, it can reduce them.  The condition of the record is obviously second, on a new record this should not be an issue.  Unfortunately, another reason is that the pops and clicks are pressed into the record as part of the production process.  It is not very common, but it happens.  There was a thread on here recently about Colleen Murphy noticing that there was a particular pressing plant in California where she was hearing new releases with pops and clicks in them.  Several years ago several of us bought the Doors vinyl box set at about the same time and we discovered a very noticeable pop in the exact same spot.  They repressed that record and sent us free replacements.  Unfortunately, when you purchase a new record you need to open it and listen to it right away to see if there is any problems.  Acoustic Sounds and the local place I buy from have never had a problem with exchanging a record, or saying "it is in the pressing, they are all like that, do you want to return it?"  It is very rare that I have a problem so I think they know I am not going home and recording it and then trying to return it.  Used vinyl is an entirely different story and unless you get someone how play grades their vinyl it is going to be a crap shoot.  I have the works looking lps play completely quiet, and I have had mint looking vinyl be so noisy it was unplayable.  I think that is a function of what type of equipment it was played on, worn out sapphire needles for example.  At the Austin Record Convention, supposedly one of the largest in the world, you see the true diehard collectors walking around with their portable battery operated record players so they can give an lp a test spin for sound quality.  

 

If you can identify a couple of records that sound clean and quiet they will be invaluable to you as reference records to either trouble shoot with or try new things out with.  I hope that whatever is causing these issues turns out to be a simple fix that can either be handled locally or over the phone with the dealer.

 

Good luck,

 

Travis

 

Dictated by not edited due to time, I apologize in advance for the syntax and grammatical errors my program and rambling thoughts may have created.

 

Thanks, Travis.

 

I bought a VPI Scout II with an Ortofon 2M Black. There is a VPI dealer in Binghamton and VPI is requiring that I take the TT to them. Stellar Stereo is only a few miles away from me and they are very good.  

 

I will pick up the Zerostat gun and the dealer already sold me the brushes, a cartridge brush, and a Disk Washer system. I guess I need to take this one step at a time.

 

Boy those DACs are beginning to look like the way to go. 

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Analog isn't about silky black backgrounds.

 

Depends on your system, I don't have that issue, not at all, no hiss, not nada........  unless of course it's in the vinyl, i.e. dirt or surface damage.

Edited by Gilbert
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Boy those DACs are beginning to look like the way to go.

LOL

More and more I have come to the conclusion that "going backwards" to vinyl is a mistake for many people. This is not sarcastic. But, if you don't have a BIG REASON to have vinyl, it can be a huge PITA. And, if you are atuned to the stealthy silence of digital, you may not be happy with vinyl. It's really an acquired sound. Honest. It really is so different from digital.

Said the man who offered a preamp with both an MM and an MC phono output option (with Jensen step-up transformerss no less). I think my original review of it on this very forum mentioned that I had a CJ with phono on demo for a week, and a BAT with phono module for a week after that and and the BBX equaled or exceeded them with stock tubes. The CJ and BAT were 2 to 3x the cost of a BBX. I had 3 very specific reference vinyl cuts I used in my comparison of those 3 preamps with a MX 110 as my base reference. That BBX preamp is a vinyl lover's dream.

Maybe I should send it back to you so you can yank the phono out and install an inboard DAC? I don't think so.

I do agree going to vinyl has its pitfalls. I don't reccomend switching to it just for the heck of it if they have 96/24 or better digital. If you are thinking about it I would try it with an entry level rig and move up from there.

It is not convenient cost effective for someone with a large library of high rez digital. But compared to Redbook, or worse MP3, it is certainly worth the effort to give it a spin.

For 500 or less you can have a great sounding plug and play vinyl rig. That is going to get you to 90% of what you can expect from vinyl with the right preamp in my opinion. From there you can decide if the cost, hassle of cleaning, getting up to change the record, flip the record and the thrill of the hunt for used vinyl is for you. I have never had anyone from my generation that gave vinyl a try again give up on it. Some stayed with the good basic rig they got, others moved up, wayup, and all of them continue to buy vinyl.

Then there are the intangibles about records, the collecting, the packaging, art, etc. There is a great book about record collectors called Dust and Grooves I highly reccomend that discusses the many reasons why people are into vinyl (beyond the digital vs. vinyl debate). Here is a link to the section about Colleen Murphy, the Khorn owner who hosted Klipsch Radio at CES this year. http://www.dustandgrooves.com/colleen/

She discuases in that article her passion for vinyl, about certain records, in a way I couldn't begin to approach, but if you read that article you begin to understand that it goes way beyond trying to ABX a record and a high rez digital file with SOTA DACs. It is emotional for her as well as a physical connection with the music. Most people I know who like vinyl, they may not even prefer it, say they like it because they are more connected orinvolved with the music.

I think jumping into a high doller rig with no baseline for a comparison is a mistake for most, not all, people. My gosh, think of the tragedy it would be for the first speakers you EVER heard to have been Khorns and you bought em. Where do you go from there? Tweaking I suppose. Some people have done it, and been extreamly happy, but for most people they started with something and moved along to where you really appreciate that you are finally close to where you want to be, tweaks or no tweaks. Personally, I got a transistor radio from Japan for Christmas in 1967 and listend to radio stations in LA. It probably had a 2" speaker and came with the white little earphone you stuck in your ear.

Vinyl is not for everyone, but it is not difficult.

I am confident that Earl is going to get that rig on track and I will bet a steak dinner at the Scotch 'N Sirloin in Binghamton that a year from now he is going to be extreamly happy with vinyl with no regrets that he made the plunge.

Travis

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The small studio I did record in during the early '70s made changes over the years. Originally, most everyone was in a huge room, although it was fairly dead. Maybe twenty foot ceiling, and room to spread everyone out. Later on the room didn't change so much, but the tried to isolate everyone more, the acoustic piano was totally encased in soundproofing, etc. All reverb was added through electronics, although they did have a huge room just for reverb. A speaker in one end and a mic or two in the other. The sound you got out of recording there was mostly what you were able to put into it. Dan Fogleberg did an album there, as did Styx, Heartsfield, and tons of others I don't remember.

 

Later, I think they went back to getting more of the sound from the room (again).

 

Bruce

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The small studio I did record in during the early '70s made changes over the years. Originally, most everyone was in a huge room, although it was fairly dead. Maybe twenty foot ceiling, and room to spread everyone out. Later on the room didn't change so much, but the tried to isolate everyone more, the acoustic piano was totally encased in soundproofing, etc. All reverb was added through electronics, although they did have a huge room just for reverb. A speaker in one end and a mic or two in the other. The sound you got out of recording there was mostly what you were able to put into it. Dan Fogleberg did an album there, as did Styx, Heartsfield, and tons of others I don't remember.

 

Later, I think they went back to getting more of the sound from the room (again).

 

Bruce

 

Golden Voice/Jerry Milam?  He and Azoff were quite a combination.  

 

You recorded there?  Do you have the tapes :mellow:

 

Travis

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I am confident that Earl is going to get that rig on track and I will bet a steak dinner at the Scotch 'N Sirloin in Binghamton

Safe bet...especially since the Scotch is no longer in Binghamton or Rochester. Only the original in Syracuse (where I took my prom date in 1970) is still operating.

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I am confident that Earl is going to get that rig on track and I will bet a steak dinner at the Scotch 'N Sirloin in Binghamton

Safe bet...especially since the Scotch is no longer in Binghamton or Rochester. Only the original in Syracuse (where I took my prom date in 1970) is still operating.

 

 

WHAT?  Really?  That was one of my favorite places.  I went to school with a kid from Binghamton and we went there when I visited, seems like they served us no problem at 18 or 19 (was New York 18 drinking age in the late 70s?).  They had locations in LA and Santa Barbara a couple of years later we hung out at.  LA closed a long time ago I heard.  It seemed like it was a real Binghamton institution that you would never expect to go away, like Scoma's in San Francisco, Morton's in Chicago, etc., etc.  

 

The last time I was in Binghamton, a long time ago, I was able to arrange a tour at the Mac factory and then went by there for the obligatory stop.  Well I am glad there is one still left, I hope it is good as it used to be.  

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I know this is late to the dance, and I haven't posted in a very long time...but I am going to give a shout out for the Technic TT. I looked at a VPI Scout, and several other similar price points, and I chose a new Technic SL-1200MK5, tweaked by KAB; power supply taken out, silicon reservoir float for the tone arm, RCA jacks added to the back, Cardas wiring in tone arm, circuits added to turn off the lights so to remove the possible electrical interference, etc. I think it sounds remarkable, and the vibration isolation of these magnetic tables built in by Technics makes it rock solid with no floor bound feedback no matter how loud or how much is pounding out of the subwoofer 3ft away from the TT. There are no parts touching, no rubber band to stretch or break, immediate spin up to correct pitch. I may be an ignorant, but this set up was easy, I have had it and used it for years, and I have not heard better.

I think this was one of the last new Mk5's before Technics discontinued 4 or 5 years ago, but KAB is still around and modifying these TTs. Just a stray thought.

Edited by Kriton
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