USNRET Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) Since I have moved along from this post where I had issues with anti-skating forces I thought I would post updates. I know that folks having a Graham 1.5, 2.0 and 2.2 arm may very well be far and few between but since it seems more folks are delving into the turntable world I tought I would share my experience. Point being that you should ask for help and keep asking when you know that something is not right but you don't know what. Yes, it is frustrating. Bottom line: I was (am) a dumbazz but I am capable of learning, albiet slowly. Re-hash: I replaced a Pro_Ject RM-5SE with a Basis 2001 turntable that I bought used equiped with a Graham arm updated with 2.2 bearings. I bought a new Ortofon 2M Black cartridge for it. I installed the cart using the supplied Graham template for overhang, leveled the table and played music. It sucked. I stopped playing vinyl. Last week I decided to tackle the problem since I had too much invested to let it collect dust and yes it does collect dust. Buy a cover and then keep it clean as dust enters everywhere. Be careful using any compressed air; don't exacerbate the problem by imbedding dust into places it should not be. My problem was...well, many. First, the cartridge was not installed properly. I had ordered a MintLP template and that fixed that. Then the anti-skating was way off with the arm always wanting to return to the arm rest. The arm wiggled and jiggled everywhere (being smart I fiqured that this was a sign that the bearings were so fine that it was GOOD); heck I couldn't touch the arm without it twisting, turning, swinging.. you get the picture. I asked for help and get many good suggestions and some not really on course with what I was experiencing. This was probably due to my poor communication skills and loose use of terminology. I studied more, I read and re-read the manual. I emailed the manufacturer. I asked for more help. I then called the manufacturer and they answered and we talked. I got home, grabbed a bright azz flashlight and looked again. Below is what I found. It seems that I have zero damping in any and all directions. I have ordered some fluid and after I get that settled I will start over with setup and report. Edit: I forgot to add that this "fluid" is the consistency of like STP or honey. I see now how that would restrict or dampen the 'paddle' and therefore the entire arm's movement. I envisioned an oil like viscousity. Edited March 10, 2015 by USNRET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 OK, maybe I'm not understanding fully, but this was a manufacturers defect that you had no damping fluid? Is that correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) OK, maybe I'm not understanding fully, but this was a manufacturers defect that you had no damping fluid? Is that correct? No, I bought it used. It was shipped in the factory case but there is a notice in the manual that anytime the arm is shipped that it should be emptied and re-filled. I mis-read how the "dip stick" should read. The fluid either leaked out or was shipped from the seller low. Based on how thick this stuff is I think it was not serviced correctly and did not leak but it was my fault for not reading level correctly and not understanding what the fluid does. Edited February 25, 2015 by USNRET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Ah yes, the old "dip stick" issue....Looking forward to reading more, and hope you get it resolved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) The amazing thing is how much better this table sounds now after using the MintLP alignment tool vs the TT I had. I can't wait to hear it properly set up 'cause although it needs help I can see the potential. After all I have learned I really think (hope) the silicone will correct the issues. Edited February 25, 2015 by USNRET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) Damping fluid isnt always necessary... it can sometimes kill the subtle frequencies that a high sensitivity cart can resolve.I dont use any in my cup. Are you trying to say your skating issue is related to this fluid? Edited February 25, 2015 by Schu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) A very valuable report, and I look forward to the rest. Didn't you also get a Basis record clamp in your package? I hope so -- that clamp does wonders with warped records due to AJ's ingenious undercut design. http://basisaudio.com/docs/acs_rcp_specs.pdf See: webkit-fake-url://F2703C85-F07A-4FF4-ACC6-AC41958D9B39/imgres.jpg A great idea to connect with Graham himself, IMO. Edited February 25, 2015 by LarryC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) nm Edited February 25, 2015 by LarryC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricktate Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Glad you are getting closer to fixing this. I still think tracking should be 1.75 to 2.0 grams and not under 1.50 . Glad you asked questions that's what this place is for and good at most of the time. We all have had brain farts so do not kick your self. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) Schu: Are you trying to say your skating issue is related to this fluid? Yes see my attempt at explanation below. LarryC: Didn't you also get a Basis record clamp in your package? Yes I did. Ok, don't laugh at my crude attempt at depicting what I have learn over the last 24 hours. After talking with Graham and then opening and studying my arm I had a eureka moment and it became clear. I do not say this applies to anything but a Graham 1.5 - 2.2 arm. Edited February 25, 2015 by USNRET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) Schu: Are you trying to say your skating issue is related to this fluid? Yes ... Several tonearms utilize damping, usually to reduce "bearing chatter" (in their words) -- Graham, Basis, Well-Tempered TT, VPI, etc. One benefit may be to reduce the arm's developing unwanted momentum in skating away out of control. The major effect, however, seems to be to dampen mechanical resonances between the cartridge's body, stylus suspension, cantilever, cart mount, etc. There are a variety of designs for TA damping -- exterior and interior paddles attached to the arm, etc. Graham's and Basis's use closed-off wells of very viscous silicone oil, which I prefer to open wells that can collect dust. I briefly looked at various manufacturer's explanations, and liked AJ Conti's (Basis) the best. http://www.basisaudio.com/docs/tnm_v4_specs.pdf. Scroll down to the "The Bearing" sub-heading: The compliance of all cartridge suspension systems, along with the mass of the cartridge and tonearm, results in a classic “mass-spring system”. The laws of physics dictate that this system will exhibit a predominant natural resonant frequency specified by the actual cartridge compliance and system moment of inertia, equal to 1/(2pi) x (K/J)1/2 where J is the moment of inertia of the system and K is the effective spring rate of the cartridge. The elimination of ringing in this system can only be accomplished through the effective use of viscous damping, achieved in the Vector Model 4 tonearm by the use of stable viscous silicone damping fluid and substantial effective damping paddle area. USN's skating issue probably related more to the anti skating mechanism itself, than to the damping, but I suspect that damping would help control it. Conti's paper also has an interesting "ANTI-SKATE BIAS " section further into the paper. Edited February 25, 2015 by LarryC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorjen Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) Damping fluid isnt always necessary... it can sometimes kill the subtle frequencies that a high sensitivity cart can resolve.I dont use any in my cup. Are you trying to say your skating issue is related to this fluid? With the VPI arm, or any other arm for matter that has fluid damping capabilities it is pretty much cartridge dependent. Damping fluid is not recommended with my Classic 3/10.5i arm with Dyanavector cartridges for example. As you say, it can kill the highs and suck the life right out of the sound. Edited March 12, 2015 by jorjen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 (edited) I spent some time on the TT today Set the VTA where the tonearm was 'level'; what to use for this? I then started setting the azimuth using The Ultimate Test LP and my Fozgometer finding that the signal had a variance of 2 to 3 increments after I had the tilt dialed in equalizing left and right which according to the instructions could be associated with lack of damping. By tinkering I found that tracking force and VTA had no effect on the wavering signal for azimuth but I did increase the tracking force to 1.6 grams as some had suggested increasing that force. USPS arrives with the Graham blue silicone and I added enough to just cover the bearing point and just touch the 'square'. The Fozgometer wavering stopped and both channels are now pretty dang close to equal. I am still playing with the anti skate mechanism but the VERY small addition of damping fluid has helped in that. I can now put the weight back on, adjusted to minimal force and the arm does not swing wildly and does not skate off the LP from the lead-in grove. Having a Bacardi beverage and listening to Marshall Tucker; all sounds great so far. Edited March 1, 2015 by USNRET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 (edited) Set the VTA where the tonearm was 'level'; what to use for this? I use eyeball sighting, looking perpendicular from the side and making the arm tube as parallel as possible with the middle surface of the LP, while avoiding confusion by the LP raised edge. Then, since the Graham is so incredibly easy to adjust VTA with the knob, it might be useful to experiment with just barely raising vs. lowering the back end of the tonearm relative to that parallel. Doing one sharpens the highs, doing the other muffles them slightly. Adjust to taste and your sonic memory of how things should sound. MHO, anyway. Sounds like outstanding care and success, USN. Edited March 1, 2015 by LarryC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 it might be useful to experiment with just barely raising vs. lowering the back end of the tonearm relative to that parallel My plan is to have my son make that adjustment while I sit in the "spot" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 (edited) I then started setting the azimuth using The Ultimate Test LP and my Fozgometer finding that the signal had a variance of 2 to 3 increments after I had the tilt dialed in equalizing left and right which according to the instructions could be associated with lack of damping. Where did you learn about the Mint and Fozgometer? I ordered the Mint package, which seemed to have all the right stuff, but didn't get a confirmation of order as yet. Where do you hook up the Fozgo? Tonearm output leads? Thanks, Edited March 1, 2015 by LarryC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 The Foz from here: http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/ttsetup.html The Mint was mentioned on many sites. During this most recent setup escapade I went back to my Graham cartride tool. It has the overhang a bit shorter than the Mint, I will try the Mint again when I get some lsitening time in. Fozgo hooks to the tonearm outputs. I also used it to check the L/R gains on my NBS preamp to satisfy myself where 'equal' is; just be careful with the volume control. If you have a really low output cartridge you can use the SUT outputs. (assuming it's outboard). Before you buy the Foz, let me know if you want to give it a whirl. I ordered a precision bubble level due in tomorrow to make sure the table is level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Thanks, USN! I used the Vector alignment tool, which is very good, but didn't do further checking. I will when I get the Mint. The Mint package has things that may help me get past some Vector-Transfiguration visualizing difficulties with the Vector tool. For example, I think the 3X magnifier, apparently with very helpful illumination, is just the thing for viewing cantilevers. Two-power magnifiers don't quite cut it for me. The 8X loupe might be useful too. Vector arms have their own challenge: The phono leads are a pair of unbroken, single-run copper wires from the cartridge clips to the RCA plug's center! No intermediate junctions, connectors, intermediate wires, or RCA pins! AJ is proud and pleased with that touch, but it makes unpacking, installation, and shipping quite the challenge. So, I would have to insert the Fozgo at the preamp. and I want to think about it. The level is a great idea. I have a standard 8" hardware store item, but more precision wouldn't hurt. Which one did you buy? Galen Carol is great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 (edited) I simply unplugged the RCAs coming from the TT at the preamp and plugged them into the Foz; no need to power up anything but the TT motor and the Foz. I really like how he suggests that I level my speakers Magnification http://www.amazon.com/Lighted-Headband-Magnifier-Magnifying-Magnification/dp/B006KZQXSW Edited March 1, 2015 by USNRET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) I simply unplugged the RCAs coming from the TT at the preamp and plugged them into the Foz; no need to power up anything but the TT motor and the Foz. Level I really like how he suggests that I level my speakers Magnification http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/B006KZQXSW My RCA jacks are very hard to reach, so using a Foz will have to wait That level looks outstanding, I think I'll order that, and the magnifier looks like a great idea for real tough viewing situations. I'd never seen Garth Leehrer in action, very interesting. Clearaudio is very well-manufacturered stuff. MaxG, once a regular on the Forum, has/had a wowee LP setup with Clearaudio's top-line linear tracking arm. Haven't heard much from him since Greece got into trouble. Thanks for all the tips! Edited March 2, 2015 by LarryC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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